Britain is changing prime ministers again: Keir Starmer is out after two years, with Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham the favourite to replace him — inheriting an underfunded defence plan and the wreckage of Peter Mandelson's Epstein-tainted appointment, all of it driven by the fear of Reform. Chris and Matt then ask what happens when the mole is a machine, using Anthropic's Claude blackmail experiment and Melissa Graves's Lawfare essay to reframe AI in intelligence work as a counterintelligence problem. Finally, Ken Harbaugh's Atlantic report on Ukraine's "warrior-witches" — women running honeypots and directing drone strikes from occupied ground, where the oldest tradecraft still wins.

Trigger Warning: In the last story after the second AD Break there is mention of violence against women in the Russian War on Ukraine

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Articles discussed in today’s episode

"Keir Starmer to step down as prime minister two years after historic election victory" by Pippa Crerar | The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/jun/22/keir-starmer-resigns-as-prime-minister

"How UK's Keir Starmer went from election landslide to downfall" by Jill Lawless & Pan Pylas | Associated Press: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-uks-keir-starmer-went-from-election-landslide-to-downfall

"Andy Burnham soft-launches his premiership" by Dan Bloom | Politico Europe: https://www.politico.eu/article/andy-burnham-uk-soft-launches-his-premiership/

"Starmer backs 5 billion drone overhaul for UK forces in DIP" by George Allison | UK Defence Journal: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/starmer-backs-5-billion-drone-overhaul-for-uk-forces-in-dip/

"The Next Counterintelligence Problem Is Artificial" by Melissa Graves | Lawfare: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-next-counterintelligence-problem-is-artificial

"The Warrior-Witches of Ukraine’s Resistance" by Ken Harbaugh | The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/2026/06/underground-intelligence-network-russia-ukraine/687578/

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Music by Andrew R. Bird

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Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.

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For most of her career, Tulsi Gabbard may have been taking direction from a reclusive Hawaii guru — the allegation at the center of a Washington Post investigation that shadowed her out of office as Director of National Intelligence. Her replacement, federal housing-finance official Bill Pulte, arrived with no national security background and, as The Atlantic's Shane Harris reports, may be holding the job unlawfully. Two directors in two months. Matt speaks with Shane — who's been reporting both stories — to trace them to a single fault line: an office built after 9/11 to coordinate the spy agencies has proven uniquely easy to politicize, and a bipartisan chorus, including veterans of the community itself, now wants it cut down or scrapped. Which leaves the harder question: whether an office this easy to bend should exist at all.

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"Tulsi Gabbard, her guru and the mysterious messages that helped shape her political career" by Jon Swaine | The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2026/06/21/tulsi-gabbard-her-guru-mysterious-messages-that-helped-shape-her-political-career/

"Trump Has a Bill Pulte Problem" by Shane Harris & Vivian Salama | The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/national-security/2026/06/bill-pulte-unlawful-intelligence-director/687684/

"Tulsi Gabbard’s Office Shouldn’t Exist" by John Sipher | The Bulwark: https://www.thebulwark.com/p/tulsi-gabbard-office-shouldnt-exist-director-national-intelligence-9-11

More of Shane’s reporting for The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/shane-harris/

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Music by Andrew R. Bird

Photos by Graeme Sloan/Bloomberg, Julia Demaree Nikhinson / AP Photo & ODNI

Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.

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Chris and Matt dig into the fine print of the U.S.-Iran memorandum signed this week by President Trump in Versailles, separating what Tehran banks immediately — sanctions relief, frozen funds, an open Strait of Hormuz — from what's still contingent on a future nuclear settlement, and why claiming victory now looks premature. From there, a Foreign Affairs piece reframes the war's aftermath: rather than breaking the Islamic Republic, the campaign may have hardened it, elevating a younger, more nationalist generation around Mojtaba Khamenei whose pragmatism is tactical rather than moral — and inviting an uneasy comparison to Putin's Russia. They close on new reporting that the Pentagon has quietly raised Israel to a "critical" counterintelligence threat, working through allegations of bugged DIA offices and eavesdropped negotiations against the longer history of allies spying on allies.

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Articles discussed in today’s episode

"Read the 14-point draft agreement between the US and Iran" by Alayna Treene, Kevin Liptak & Mostafa Salem | CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2026/06/17/middleeast/us-iran-war-mou-text-intl

"Experts react: The US and Iran just announced an interim peace deal. Here’s what we know so far." by Nate Swanson, Matthew Kroenig, Landon Derentz, Josh Lipsky, Victoria J. Taylor, Danny Citrinowicz, Daniel B. Shapiro | The Atlantic Council: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/dispatches/experts-react-the-us-and-iran-just-announced-an-interim-peace-deal-heres-what-we-know-so-far/

"Donald Trump’s Iran deal met with anger, relief and incredulity" by Jonathan Yerushalmy | The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jun/18/donald-trump-iran-deal-reactions-anger-relief-incredulity

"Iran’s New Grand Strategy: How a Remade Islamic Republic Will Reshape the Middle East" by Narges Bajoghli & Vali Nasr | Foreign Affairs: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/guest-pass/redeem/mTPNp3YLFpg

"Pentagon Sees Growing Espionage Threat From Israel" by Julian E. Barnes & Eric Schmitt | The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/06/us/politics/pentagon-sees-growing-espionage-threat-from-israel.html

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Music by Andrew R. Bird

Photos by Morteza Nikoubazl/NurPhoto, Reuters

Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Ahana Datta Fasel began as an ethical hacker for the British government before becoming cyber chief at the Financial Times, where nation-state actors targeting journalists became a daily reality. Her PhD on the political economy of digital espionage produced Full Stack Spies: Cyber Espionage in the Age of US-China Competition, which argues that cyber operations function as a mirror of the states behind them — their psychology, risk tolerances, and strategic ambitions made visible. She discusses with Chris how China has compensated for limited tradecraft sophistication with persistent scale and a dispersed ecosystem of front companies over three decades; what a leaked Chengdu hacker group chat reveals about the ego rivalries and financial anxieties driving operational decisions; what Operation Triangulation suggests about American reliance on private contractors; and why the defining fault line of this era isn't between peace and war, but between peace and "not war."

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Learn more about Ahana on her website: https://ahanadattafasel.com/

Order Full Stack Spies: https://www.hurstpublishers.com/profile/ahana-datta-fasel/

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Music by Andrew R. Bird

Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.

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Ahmed Aboudouh — associate fellow at Chatham House's Middle East and North Africa Programme and head of the China Studies Unit at the Emirates Policy Center — joins Chris to assess the shifting architecture of power in the Middle East. He argues that China has no coherent regional strategy and that Washington's expectation of Chinese pressure on Tehran reflects a fundamental misreading of Beijing's interests and the limits of coercive statecraft. He traces how Egypt’s diplomacy reflects a country that has traded regional leadership for crisis management, explains why Arab states want a normalized Iran rather than a weakened one, and argues that the war will intensify multi-alignment rather than force a binary choice between Washington and Beijing. With the Abraham Accords effectively dead, the United States faces a damning paradox of its own making: deeper military entanglement, eroding strategic credibility.

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More about Ahmed on Chatham House: https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/ahmed-aboudouh

Connect with Ahmed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ahmed-aboudouh-346b1459/

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Read Ahmed’s work for Chatham House

"Why Egypt is helping to end the Iran war": https://www.chathamhouse.org/2026/05/why-egypt-helping-end-iran-war

"China will benefit from the Iran war, regardless of any deal between Trump and Tehran": https://www.chathamhouse.org/2026/05/china-will-benefit-iran-war-regardless-any-deal-between-trump-and-tehran

"China is playing the long game over Iran": https://www.chathamhouse.org/2026/02/china-playing-long-game-over-iran

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Music by Andrew R. Bird

Photo by Bandar Algaloud/Saudi Royal Court, Chatham House

Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Julian Fisher spent his career as a British intelligence operative before distilling what he learned into the Think Like a Spy: Strategic Relations Workshop—and his central argument is counterintuitive: the most transferable lessons from intelligence work aren't classified techniques, they're interpersonal skills. In conversation with Chris, Fisher argues that human intelligence, at its core, is the disciplined practice of building trust, reading people accurately, and cultivating long-term strategic relationships—competencies with direct applications in leadership, negotiation, and professional life. The conversation covers his distinction between influence and manipulation (one operates in a subject's interests; the other subverts them), the role of self-awareness and genuine curiosity in effective leadership, and the trained capacity to step off the emotional battlefield and respond deliberately rather than react. Drawing on methods developed in intelligence, military, and law-enforcement contexts, Fisher's framework treats networking not as contact collection but as the construction of durable, mutually beneficial bonds—the kind that take years to build and, when they matter, make all the difference.

Join Julian's course that starts on 23rd June here:
https://theintelligencemaven.com

Connect with Julian here:
https://julesfisher.com/

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Music by Andrew R. Bird

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Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.

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In the late 1940s and early 1950s, CIA and MI6 launched an audacious series of clandestine operations to infiltrate and destabilize Communist Albania — and lost nearly every agent they sent in. Historian Stephen Long, Assistant Professor in International Relations at Xi'an Jiaotong-Liverpool University and author of A Rich Harvest of Bitter Fruit, reconstructs how the Albanian Sigurimi, one of Eastern Europe's most formidable counterintelligence services, turned the West's covert action program into a catastrophe — aided, from the inside, by British Russian spy Kim Philby. Long examines the fractured exile networks that became the human raw material for these missions, the diverging British and American strategic objectives, and the 1952 Apple mission's disastrous double cross. He traces how Albania's failures quietly shaped the covert interventions to come — in Iran, in Guatemala — and what the human cost demands of the institutions that ordered it.

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Order A Rich Harvest of Bitter Fruit: https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/A-Rich-Harvest-of-Bitter-Fruit-by-Stephen-Long/9781837732241

Connect with Stephen: https://scholar.xjtlu.edu.cn/en/persons/SteveLong/

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Music by Andrew R. Bird

Photo by AFP, Canva

Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.

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Chris and Matt break down a packed few weeks in intelligence and geopolitics, opening with the resignation of Tulsi Gabbard as Director of National Intelligence — a departure framed officially around her husband's illness but widely read as an exit under pressure. Drawing on a Bulwark piece by former CIA officer John Sipher, they examine whether the ODNI was ever structurally sound enough to survive a politicized occupant, and what Gabbard's tenure — from her reversal on the IC's Iran nuclear assessment to her exclusion from senior meetings — reveals about what this administration actually wants from intelligence. From there, the episode turns to the Trump-Xi summit in Beijing, where the photo-op framing papered over a sharper story: divergent definitions of "constructive strategic stability," a $14 billion arms package for Taiwan left unsigned, and a delegation of American CEOs carrying hat-in-hand business pitches to Washington's principal strategic adversary. They also examine a New York Times investigation into Chinese intelligence's recruitment attempt of a House committee staffer — a case that doubled as a window into Beijing's priorities in the weeks before the summit. Finally, an investigation into Russia's covert cyber warfare training program at a university near Moscow, and a Telegraph profile of Oleg Gordievsky's quiet final years in rural Surrey — including a regular table at a restaurant Chris knows all too well.

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Articles discussed in today's episode

"Tulsi Gabbard’s Office Shouldn’t Exist" by John Sipher | The Bulwark: https://www.thebulwark.com/p/tulsi-gabbard-office-shouldnt-exist-director-national-intelligence-9-11

"Tulsi Gabbard’s resistance to foreign wars amid Trump’s aggression was her undoing" by Mohamad Bazzi | The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/may/24/tulsi-gabbard-foreign-wars-trump

"Tulsi Gabbard is showing why her job shouldn’t exist" by David Ignatius | The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2026/02/05/tulsi-gabbard-trump-dni-intelligence-agency/

"China and the U.S. Agreed to ‘Strategic Stability’ in Beijing. They Don’t Define It the Same Way." by Zongyuan Zoe Liu | Council on Foreign Relations: https://www.cfr.org/articles/china-and-the-u-s-agreed-to-strategic-stability-in-beijing-they-dont-define-it-the-same-way

"What did Trump and Xi accomplish?" | Atlantic Council: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/content-series/fastthinking/what-did-trump-and-xi-accomplish/

"He Offered a Lawmaker’s Aide Quick Cash. Was He Spying for China?" by Dustin Volz | The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/09/us/politics/china-us-spy-congressional-aide.html

"Russia’s top secret spy school teaching hacking and election meddling" by Pjotr Sauer & Shaun Walker | The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/may/07/revealed-russia-top-secret-spy-school-hacking-western-electoral-interference

"Revealed: The secret suburban life of Britain’s greatest Cold War spy" by Samuel Montgomery | The Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/05/26/revealed-the-secret-suburban-life-of-britains-greatest-cold/

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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD: https://filmsandpodcasts.co.uk/
Music by Andrew R. Bird
Photos by Kenny Holston/NYT, Heather Diehl/Getty

Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.

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The U.S. Constitution gives Congress the power to declare war. Congress hasn't formally done so since 1942. Brian Finucane, a former State Department lawyer and current senior adviser at the International Crisis Group, joins Matt to make sense of how that happened — and what it means now that the United States is at war with Iran. Brian has spent years arguing, across administrations of both parties, that executive branch war-making has drifted dangerously far from its constitutional moorings. Operation Epic Fury, he contends, is the most consequential test of that argument yet.

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Further reading

"What the Iran War Reveals About the War Powers Resolution and How Congress Can Act" by Tess Bridgeman & Brian Finucane | Just Security: https://www.justsecurity.org/137977/iran-hostilities-war-powers-restart-clock/ "On the State Department Memorandum 'Operation Epic Fury and International Law’" by Brian Finucane | Just Security: https://www.justsecurity.org/137097/state-department-epic-fury-international-law/ "An Unserious Justification for an Unnecessary War: Assessing the U.S. 'Article 51’ Letter to U.N. on Iran War" by Brian Finucane | Just Security: https://www.justsecurity.org/134290/us-article-51-letter-united-nations/ "Senate Votes to Take Up Measure to Force Trump to End Iran War" by Megan Mineiro | The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/19/us/politics/senate-iran-war-authorization.html "Bending the Guardrails: U.S. War Powers after 7 October" by Brian Finucane | International Crisis Group: https://www.crisisgroup.org/rpt/united-states/009-bending-guardrails-us-war-powers-after-7-october

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Charles Beaumont spent years as an MI6 officer running human sources before turning to fiction—and his second novel, A Spy at War, carries the authority of someone who has actually done the work. Set against the early days of the Ukraine War in 2022, the book maps the architecture of Russian disinformation: corruption narratives seeded into sympathetic media, useful idiots at senior policy levels, and the Chechen enforcers whose own histories implicate Moscow in the violence that built Putin's state. His conversation with Matt covers the CIA-SIS pre-invasion intelligence coup, the fracturing transatlantic alliance, and the Global South's soft-power vacuum—arriving at a conclusion that is harder to dismiss with every passing month: that this war won't be decided in the Donbas, but in the battle for Western public opinion, a battle the West is still not sure it's fighting.

Subscribe and share to stay ahead in the world of intelligence, global issues, and current affairs.

Order A Spy at War and Charles’s first novel, A Spy Alone: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/authors/259672/charles-beaumont/

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Please share this episode using these links

Audio: https://pod.fo/e/41737a YouTube: https://youtu.be/rEgHpRKW_GA

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Become a “Friend of the Podcast” on Patreon for £3/$4: https://www.patreon.com/SecretsAndSpies Buy merchandise from our shop: https://www.redbubble.com/shop/ap/60934996 Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/secretsandspies Subscribe to our YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDVB23lrHr3KFeXq4VU36dg For more information about the podcast, check out our website: https://secretsandspiespodcast.com

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Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.

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There will be no show on Saturday 9th May as we are on a production break. We will return on Saturday 16th May

Chris has some recommendations from our back catalogue.

Chris's Episode recommendations

From CIA to CEO with Rupal Patel
Audio: https://pod.fo/e/371b55
YouTube: https://youtu.be/94-vBjgdNzA

Former CIA analyst Rupal Patel joins Chris to explore reinvention, resilience and life after intelligence, from tactical ignorance and time management to building a life that truly fits.

The Fourth Intelligence revolution with Anthony Vinci
Audio: https://pod.fo/e/365bae
YouTube: https://youtu.be/D4ZagwI5Z3o

Former chief technology officer of the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, Dr. Anthony Vinci explains how AI, China and disinformation are driving a new intelligence revolution, where citizens, companies and trust itself have become targets

Support Secrets and Spies

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Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/secretsandspies
Subscribe to our YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDVB23lrHr3KFeXq4VU36dg

For more information about the podcast, check out our website: https://secretsandspiespodcast.com

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Follow Chris and Matt on Bluesky:

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https://bsky.app/profile/mattfulton.net

Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD: https://filmsandpodcasts.co.uk/

Music by Andrew R. Bird

Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.