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Career Relaunch®

Joseph Liu

Hear inspiring stories of reinvention to fuel your own career change

  • 50 minutes 49 seconds
    Stepping Back with Gisela Prunes Garcia- CR101

    When was the last time you took some time off from work? I often feel this pressure to keep plowing ahead in my career, to not take detours, and to not slow down. However, taking a momentary pause during a job transition is often the only real opportunity you have to slow down, recalibrate, and reconsider where you want to take your career next.

    HR professional Gisela Prunes Garcia shares her thoughts on the complexities of living and working in different countries, putting yourself out there before you’re ready, and managing your internal thoughts during uncertain career transitions.

    In episode 101 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I also share some thoughts on the tension between professional achievement and periodic reflection during the Mental Fuel® segment.

    💡Key Career Change Insights

    1. Returning to your home country after living elsewhere may not always fill you with the comfort you might expect from familiar surroundings and can instead leave you feeling confused about where you belong.
    2. Talking about your career when you’re working for an established, well-known company is much easier than discussing your transitions or messy periods in your professional trajectory.
    3. While uncomfortable, career transitions can be a very fertile ground to explore other interests and paths that you may have otherwise ignored or overlooked while being focused on climbing the corporate ladder.

    🚀Listener Challenge

    During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenge you to periodically permit yourself to slow down, even if it’s just for a day, and allow yourself to have a bit of a metaphorical palate cleanser. During these momentary pauses, ask yourself:

    • What’s my level of satisfaction with where my career is headed right now?
    • What action can I take to better align my work with my natural strengths and interests?
    • Where would I like my life to be a year from now, both personally and professionally? 5 years from now?

    🎧Episode Chapters

    00:00:00 Overview
    00:01:07 Introduction
    00:03:47 Discussion with Gisela Prunes Garcia
    00:42:33 Mental Fuel
    00:49:38 Listener Challenge
    00:50:09 Wrap Up

    👤About Gisela Prunes Garcia

    Gisela Prunes GarciaGisel Prunes Garcia is a Human Resources professional from Barcelona who lived in the United States for the past 12 years. Her career in corporate started in Barcelona at Sara Lee Corporation, a Fortune 500 company in consumer goods, where she worked for a few years until she decided to move to California in 2012. She went on to explore different industries while building up a new life and career in a new culture, in a second language with no network.

    Her most recent experiences were with The Walt Disney Company in HR Production and Getty Images managing Creative and Editorial client groups. She specializes in finding opportunities that drive solutions to improve the employee experience and business results. Working in various industries and with highly creative folks allowed her to form unique perspectives and develop agility to analyze problems and find holistic and creative solutions.

    Follow Gisela on Instagram and LinkedIn.

    ⭐️Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    💬Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
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    🎵Interview Segment Music Credits

    ✍🏼Episode Interview Transcript

    Joseph: Hello, Gisela. Thank you so much for joining me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show.

    Gisela: [03:53] Thank you for having me. I’m very excited.

    Joseph: We got a lot to talk about between your time in Spain and moving to the U.S., then eventually moving back to Spain. I was hoping we could start by just getting a glimpse into what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. Could you just give us a quick snapshot?

    Gisela: [04:13] Right now, I think that I’m in one of the most convoluted times of my journey, one of those that are very gray and you are kind of lost in the mist and kind of stuck.

    Joseph: That’s very common for people to be at, that’s why we’re talking. What’s been confusing about this particular time?

    Gisela: [04:31] I’m going through a lot of change in a lot of areas of life. When more than one changes, it elevates the stress. And so, being able to manage that at this moment, it’s becoming a challenge and terrifying as well.

    Joseph: Just to set the scene here, could you just tell us, where are you right now and what are you up to right now, both personally and professionally?

    Gisela: [04:58] I’m in Spain, that’s where I’m from. I’m currently in Barcelona. I recently came here but I was in the U.S. for the past almost 13 years, but I’m originally from Spain so I just returned. I don’t know for how long, but I decided to come back here and spend more time with family recently, the last 2-3 months.

    Joseph: Can you describe the work that you are at least thinking about doing moving forward? I know you’re in the transition right now and still figuring it out.

    Gisela: [05:34] I’ve been working in corporate in my career. Since I was still living in college, I was already trying to figure out what I wanted to do when doing internships in companies. So since very, very early stage in my career, I’ve been in corporations, mostly big corporations. Right now, I’m taking a pause on everything career-wise to process this transition or the moment in life that I find myself in. I’m assessing and exploring too if I would like to become an entrepreneur and how would I do with that.

    Joseph: Let’s kind of go back in time a little bit. You mentioned you’re back in Spain now, and you had moved to the U.S. at the beginning of your career. I want to talk about what triggered you to move countries, but can we just start from the very beginning of your career? I know you’ve spent a lot of your career in the corporate world focused on HR. What got you interested in working in human resources at the very beginning?

    Gisela: [06:30] I was very compelled by the human resources work. But because in education really, I found that this is a field that it’s not very explored no matter what you studied. I felt like I really wanted to get a sense of it working and experiencing myself, what it is to working in each of the other departments. So very young, I got an internship at the time was Sara Lee, and I was based in Barcelona. Since the moment that I got into that company, and previously I already tried different fields, but experienced at this company, I loved it. I loved the combination of skill sets, working in a business, but also everything that had to do with talent management. I really loved it. I thought, “This could be my career.”

    Joseph: So from the start, you’re at Sara Lee, were you thinking that HR was the best fit for you? Were you pretty certain about that at the time? Did it feel right to you at the time?

    Gisela: [07:25] Yes, it did. I like to add different things. I was also interested in education, but I felt very comfortable in a business setting and in a business environment. I think that’s what made me stay and continue learning about it. I was doing well. I decided to explore all the different facets and areas of human resources.

    Joseph: Now, eventually, you made a pretty big decision to leave your home country, and eventually move to the U.S. I’d love to dive into this a little bit because I know it’s a major decision to relocate countries; as someone, myself, who’s done it. What triggered you to think about moving away from Spain and how did you choose the U.S. to be your destination?

    Gisela: [08:12] I wanted to expand my career and make it be international in my experience and learn about other countries. I knew that if I wanted to have like a career that’s like international, I would have to learn English and that was my pending signature. I’ve never been good at learning languages. I thought after a few years at Sara Lee, I was still in my early 20s and I felt myself very settled in Spain and there was something that I was like, “I need to explore.” I always been like this dedicated person; studying, working, having two jobs while studying, and I was already doing well. But too settled for my tastes.

    So I thought, “This is the moment. Let’s study English somewhere.” I just opened a map and literally decided, “Okay, where in the world I could go to learn English, that has a sunny location?” So that was my first indicator of like, it has to be like a sunny place. And then, I ended up going to San Diego.

    Joseph: San Diego.

    Gisela: [09:12] California.

    Joseph: Yes. good choice. How was your transition to the U.S.? What did you do when you first got there and how did you settle in?

    Gisela: [09:21] It was tough. At the beginning, I thought it was just going to be a vacation while I was in language school. So it’s a very different mindset than when you are actually settling to live in a new country. At the beginning, it was very fun. It was an amazing one of the best experiences that I ever had while I was in language school, 8 to 10 hours a day, really mastering. My English skills are trying because they were like pretty much non-existent.

    But then, things change when you are already like, “Let’s live here. Let’s try to start a career here.” Still with basic level of English, that was probably the toughest experience of my career. Especially in human resources since you need to know a lot in the employment law, the legislation. I would not finish the phone interview screenings. I was not able to because I had a lot of difficulty understanding them. Little by little, when that improved, the recruiters would tell me, “You have good experience in Europe. But here in the U.S., we require pretty like medium to high level of knowledge with employment laws; especially in California.” So learning all of that in a second language was tough.

    Joseph: You would eventually move into the corporate world, working in HR. You successfully secured your role. Out of curiosity, how did you overcome these barriers, the hesitation on the side of headhunters or recruiters or hiring managers when they were saying, “Okay. You got the qualifications, but you don’t have the localized experience that we’re looking for.” How did you overcome that?

    Gisela: [11:04] I think I cried a lot. And then, I went to HR courses that helped me. I bought a lot of books and I did a lot of self-study to the point where my whole house was full of papers. The walls of my house were full of papers, even in my bedroom, all over the place, so I could memorize some of the laws or words that for me were difficult to understand. It was a lot of that through those classes.

    And then, getting an internship, which at the time was unpaid. So for me, was a setback. Because in Spain, I was much better position. But it was very helpful to get that internship so I could practice, like a real experience. Then, studying aside.

    Joseph: So a combination of internships, and also your self-study, and scaling up. You were interning at the World Trade Center in San Diego, and then you ended up moving into the recruitment sector for a little bit of time. You would eventually land at Walt Disney Imagineering. How did you land that role? Because that’s obviously a large, well-established company. Just be curious, how did you manage to get your foot in the door with Walt Disney?

    Gisela: [12:20] Disney was always my first target. Since I was in the U.S., I started believing that could actually be possible for me to get a job there. I submitted close to 30 applications at Disney in the first years. Those applications never got a callback. But eventually, after I started building my experience and temping, which was a huge entrance for me in the U.S. market so I could switch from companies very quickly, learn fast, make an impact fast and every gig was better than the old one, and updating my LinkedIn.

    And so, after all of that, I received a call from a head-hunter who found me on LinkedIn for a potential two-month opportunity. Thanks, God that I returned that call because they even say it was Disney. It was like an email that didn’t look very appealing. But I always had that sense of curiosity that I thought, “Let me go to find out what this is.” When they said it was Disney, I couldn’t believe it.

    Joseph: And this was a temporary role initially.

    Gisela: [13:22] Yes.

    Joseph: What would you go on to do at Walt Disney Imagineering? I know you were there for just over a year, and then you’d eventually move on to the animation studios. Could you take us through your trajectory there at Walt Disney?

    Gisela: [13:34] That first call, it was for a temporary position for a very, very specific project. It was to assist the human resources department that was leading the construction of the Disneyland Resort in Shanghai. They interviewed me for that project. After that project ended, then I applied for another role at Imagineering as well in recruiting. And then, I got that role. But all of this, it was still like temporary contracts. I was like a place at Disney by a third party during the time that I was at Imagineering.

    Joseph: How did you then move from that temporary role into a more full-time role for Walt Disney Animation Studios, and then eventually the Walt Disney Studios?

    Gisela: [14:15] During that time at Disney, I was like, “I’m loving these. I’m loving this place.” I was just sinking in all the magic. I couldn’t even believe that I was still there after 1 year or like 2 years when it was only going to be two months. So I encouraged myself to, “Okay. Maybe this is possible. Maybe now, I can get a full-time job and be hired at Disney.”

    And so, at that time, I remember there were limited possibilities because there were not many positions open. But one of them was that I saw an opening at the Walt Disney Animation Studios. I just regularly applied through their portals, and I got an interview with Disney Animation Studios. I remember that I don’t think that I ever, in my life, prepared for anything better and more than I prepared for that interview with animation.

    Joseph: What do you remember about that interview?

    Gisela: [15:12] It was many interviews. It was so many interviews. Like one-on-one interviews, but there were also panel interviews with multiple people in the room. And so, those like more towards final stages made me like super nervous. I was like out of my mind with nervousness and anxiety.

    Joseph: You would eventually become a recruitment and outreach coordinator there at Walt Disney Animation Studios. Then, you became an HR specialist at the Walt Disney Studios. I know this a while back, but what did you like about your life in the corporate world there in the U.S. at the time?

    Gisela: [15:45] I was thriving in it. I loved all the challenges, and there are always challenges that come with working in corporate and a lot of complexities. But I found myself thriving on it, and I was always so hungry for learning. I always found something that would be fascinating for me, for my own development, and for my own learning. I was very comfortable with the environment, especially working in a creative setting. That was very inspiring for me since I do have a personality that is always also involved in like [unintelligible 16:20], and that was for myself. And so, I felt like I connected well also with that environment at that time.

    Joseph: Were you thinking that you were going to just stay at Walt Disney? And definitely, did it cross your mind to explore other companies, other opportunities? Where were you at in terms of your professional interests at the time, staying versus exploring something else?

    Gisela: [16:48] Especially the first years when I was at Disney, I was like, “Would I want to ever go somewhere else?” I could see how easily is to get comfortable. It was a very difficult and a struggle to not attach your personal value or identity. They, in such a big brand, in such a big name. And so, every time that I changed the position at Disney, it was a struggle. For example, leaving animation. It was like, “Am I crazy? I love this place. Why would I leave?”

    But on the other side, you have that other voice of prioritizing growth at a certain moment in your career and especially in my field, which is very interesting to me, personally, seeing different environments and departments and teams. It was that decision of, “Okay. I’m going to jump,” even though I always thought, “Maybe I’ll regret jumping, but I’m still going to do it.” It was that constant struggle to check in with yourself and then just do it because there is always a different learning on the other side.

    Joseph: I was giving a talk a few weeks ago, and somebody came up to me after my talk. It was on achieving your career goals. She works at Google and she’s been there for years, I think over a decade. She asked me, is there a problem to stay at a company for a really long time? Like, does that start to look strange from an external standpoint?

    But I guess, what I was thinking when I heard that question was, sometimes, I myself, feel like if I’ve been doing something for too long, just the duration of time starts to make me wonder if I should do something else. I’ve always just wondered, is that like an unnecessary pressure that we put on ourselves to constantly be pushing forward to the next challenge? Do you have any thoughts? Again, I’m going back to your time as you started to wrap up your time at Walt Disney, and we’ll eventually talk about your most recent role in the moment.

    Gisela: [18:47] Personal life circumstances also play a huge factor. Maybe the fact that I was a foreigner in a foreign country, without my family over there, maybe that will get me a little bit more impulse than maybe somebody who makes different decisions based on their lives in circumstances or is looking for more stability. They feel like it’s many different factors. But I agree that, sometimes, we just put a lot of pressure on ourselves, and it depends on the discipline as well. There are certain disciplines that once you secure a really good position in a certain industry where maybe those jobs are more limited, maybe it makes sense that the person tends to want to stay longer. But maybe for other disciplines, you could benefit from seeing different environments, that also is a point of decision-making for someone to be jumping around I think.

    Joseph: How did you make your decision to eventually leave Disney and move on to Getty Images then?

    Gisela: [19:46] To me, leaving Disney, I felt like Frodo dropping the ring in Mordor. It was very difficult to put down my batch of that company. But I really wanted to see a different idea within the entertainment and media industry. I was looking for a very specific type of role that was more strategic, and I was looking for different characteristics. And I thought after almost 8 years of my run in Disney, that was a good point to move forward.

    And then, it took me a while. I interviewed a lot, many companies. Like, the companies were interviewing me, but I was interviewing more of those companies because I had a lot of clarity in what I wanted to find. So it took a while, but eventually, Getty came along with a very interesting role and had most of what I was looking for in my next role, and I accepted the job offer with them.

    Joseph: Things are going pretty well for you in the United States. You move to San Diego. You land a couple of internships. You’re working at one of the most well-known companies in the world, Walt Disney. You eventually move on to Getty Images. You land the role that sounds like was the perfect fit for you regarding your next move. When did you start thinking about moving back to Spain?

    Gisela: [21:14] The last few years since the pandemic. The pandemic became very hard to manage when you are so many miles from your family, and there was a change of paradigm and a change of a lot of things. I feel like since the pandemic, I had in the back of my mind the possibility of spending some time in Europe, even if it was not necessarily Spain. But because I left it so young and I have grown so much, I always had that thing of like, “Should I explore? Should I take some time to recognize Europe, and even discover places that I didn’t have the chance to when I was so young?”

    Joseph: Was there a moment when you made your decision; “Okay. I’m going to leave Getty behind, going to leave Los Angeles behind,” which is where you were based at the time, “and I’m going to move back to Barcelona.” Do you remember the moment when you decided that?

    Gisela: [22:07] Yes. I think it was last year, actually. Los Angeles; I always felt so compelled by the city, so I would have those thoughts of going back on my mind, but I would not act on it because I was doing well there, I had my job, I was happy with Getty Images. Actually, I will always remember it was award season in Los Angeles. It was between the months of February and March that I actually was with the team that I was supporting creative and editorial at the Oscars.

    Later, a week after, I was all of a sudden in the hospital in one of those life moments where your health all of a sudden goes downhill, and then you need to reassess things, and then you need to start listening. The body puts you in a different direction all of a sudden. So that was like a breaking point for me to reassess, “Okay. What do I do now that I have a new life situation?”

    Joseph: If you don’t mind me asking, Gisela, what was happening with your health at the time? What was the reason for having to go to the hospital?

    Gisela: [23:12] I’ve been struggling for the 2-3 years with a lot of symptoms that nobody was able to pin down where those were coming from, even though they affected me a lot but I was able to manage. All of a sudden, during that time, I started experiencing stronger and stronger symptoms. Until one day to the other, I got super sick. And then, finally, they were able to diagnose that I was celiac. But I have been asymptomatic for a long, long time, which as far as I know is not as common. Usually, celiac shows some sort of symptoms even if they are not digestive. But in my case, my body showed absolutely nothing until I was like very severely Ill where my digestive system was not properly functioning. And then, you even get like this nutrition.

    So it was something at that time, very severe for what it could look like on the surface, like a condition that’s not familiar, right? With that condition that is like, “Oh, you stop eating gluten,” and that’s it. But sometimes, if it’s caused more damage, it’s no longer simple. So I had to really put a pause on everything at that point.

    Joseph: I don’t know a tremendous amount about celiac. I know some people in my life who’ve had it, and it involves gluten intolerance. But I also understand that if you don’t discover it until later in life it can actually wreak some havoc and damage on your system. I guess it’s good that you caught it. When you did, I guess as you’re lying there in the hospital, what was running through your head when you thought about your career looking forward in the United States versus perhaps exploring returning to Europe?

    Gisela: [24:54] First of all, there was a phase of depression and anger. Like, I even told my doctor first before I could even think of anything else, it’s like, “You are wrong. I’m not celiac. Like, I’m from Spain and I’m made of red. What are you talking about?” I was at first upset with everything, right? Especially, in a moment where you are in your career and doing well, it’s like, “Oh, no.”

    Joseph: And then, how did you come to terms with that? I guess I’m thinking about the stages of grieving. I guess the first couple are, first of all, denial, and then some anger that you’re talking about. How did you come to accept that maybe you did need to make a change?

    Gisela: [25:31] It took me a few months. I’m sure many people would relate to this, but we tend to take everything on ourselves. Like, “I can do it. I’ve been doing it for like 12 years here and alone, and I’m alive, and I’ve gone through so many things, so this is just one more. This is not going to stop me or affect me in any way, right?” So I try to act normal and overcome it on my own like I always done. But this time, it was not working. This time, the more that I was trying to push, the body was slapping me back. I’m fine one day, and then I’m more sick the other.

    That’s for months until I had a discussion with my supervisor. I was very transparent about what I was going through. I received great support as well. I finally assessed the situation and decided, “Okay. Maybe this is the time to take a pause, find the keys of what works for me until I recover, until I get better, and I find my new habits.” And then, I rather do it from Spain, spend more time with my family, to connect with Europe, and take this time as a creative exploration with myself.

    Joseph: What’s it been like for you the past couple of months now that you have been back in Spain?

    Gisela: [26:49] It’s been scary. I never experienced this before. It’s a constant terror that you are, all of a sudden, first of all, not attached to any big brands. So here it goes again. Now, I’m solo. My name is not attached to those brands anymore. Like, you don’t have a paycheck coming through. The list could go on and on of terrifying things that are happening right now. But I think that the worst is not having a clear direction of what you are going to hit next, which is kind of the first time that happened to me. Because I’m very analytical. I always have a plan A, B, and C.

    And so, right now, I can have an idea of the things that I want to explore, but that is not that specific goal that I need to hit. And so, that creates a lot of anxiety and it’s just terrifying of being in a situation where you’re trying to figure out and explore and get to enjoy this time without the anxiety hitting you over.

    Joseph: This is I guess, one of the reasons why I wanted to talk with you, Gisela. Because I think so often on these kinds of shows, we talk with people during the before and the after of their career change journey. And so, you get a glimpse of what they were doing before, and then you kind of get the glimpse into how everything is now worked out really nicely in the end. What I think is very interesting is catching people when they’re in the middle of it and they haven’t figured it out because that’s where a lot of listeners are when they listen to this show.

    You’re right, you’re talking about some things that I know I’ve struggled with myself, where it’s the balance between just enjoying the downtime versus feeling pressured to uncover and identify exactly what you want to do next.

    I guess I’d be really interested to hear, how about the readjustment going back to Spain and being back in your home country. As you know, I’m from the United States. I live in the UK now. I’ve always wondered what it would be like if I were to then move back to the U.S. after all this time of being away. Can you give a glimpse into what that adjustment has been like for you? And then, we’ll talk about some of your professional explorations in a moment.

    Gisela: [28:49] I don’t know if I would be able to answer this question yet because it’s been so recently for me. While I’m trying to recover a bit of my health, I’ve been so swimming between madness of logistics and administrative things that I need to do and start a life over. It involves so much that I haven’t grasped it yet. It’s like I have not really landed. It’s the way I feel it. All of a sudden, I found myself putting things on my agenda, on my calendar, of things that I need to do one and functioning the same way that I used to. And so, I think that training my brain, it’s what I’m mostly focusing on as my only responsibility to be able to really make an impact for myself during this time.

    But being here, it feels very strange. It feels like it’s a different person that came here and I don’t even have a sense of belonging like I used to, which, at first, you get sad about it, but at the same time, I think that it’s beautiful because you have grown. And now, you are more connected to different cultures and places. But I agree, it’s not often spoken and there is so much that goes into it.

    Joseph: I know what you mean about feeling a bit out of place, even though it’s your home country.

    Gisela: [30:07] Yeah.

    Joseph: But when you’ve been away, you change a little bit and you see another way of living and another way of being. And then, going back, it can just feel a little bit surreal. I always have these weird out-of-body experiences when I go back to the United States. Where I feel like I’m this different person back in this environment that used to be very familiar to me. And now, it feels very foreign.

    Gisela: [30:31] Yeah, it feels like that. But I’m also noticing something interesting. I realize I catch my brain always thinking, “Oh, I live here or I live there,” right? It’s like you have to pick sides. I’m here now, and this is what I need. But then, you start realizing it’s like, “No, I’m still from LA.” LA is also like a home. It’s just that my base right now, it’s here. But LA will be my second base. And so, we try to compartmentalize everything. And also, telling my brain and training my brain new things and new concepts of my new identity and my new lifestyle. I feel like this is helping me a little bit as well.

    Joseph: The other thing you mentioned was this loss of an association with a big brand. I’ve been there myself, where you’re working for a well-established company, whether it’s Getty or Disney. How’s that been for you? I know you alluded to it earlier. But how do you reconcile now not being attached to those brands; and yet, it’s still a big part of your professional history?

    Gisela: [31;31] Realistically, and full transparency, and honestly, it would have been way easier for me and more comfortable doing this interview. For example, when I was at Disney or at the Getty, with a name attached, and then you just talked about it. And getting out of the world and saying, “This is me. And yes, it’s my experience. But right now, I’m in this stage and my life is a mess.” I find this much more tricky.

    Joseph: I’ve been there before myself. I feel very naked. Like I feel like I’ve got nothing to say about myself. Just because I’m not currently working for a well-known organization. I feel very exposed. It’s a strange feeling. I know you’re still figuring this out, but are you thinking that you want to work independently or that you want to return to the corporate world? Or is that still a question that you’re wrestling with right now?

    Gisela: [32:20] I’m still trying to figure this out, and I’m allowing myself some space to do that. I enjoyed working in the corporate world mostly. I would definitely return once I recover and I think it’s the right time. But I want to take the chance and advantage of this situation where I have schedule restrictions because I’m prioritizing right now myself and exploring what would be like being an entrepreneur. If I could work solo and bring my expertise to the world in a different way, and see if this is something that I would like to do.

    Luckily, here in Barcelona, and this just happened recently, I applied to one of those programs to help develop entrepreneurs. I submitted a project and it got selected. And so, right now, I’m going through this, starting this program for entrepreneurs to develop a project. I’m trying to see if this is something I would even like and explore that creative space for that purpose.

    Joseph: There’s a lot of upside to having this transition where you’ve got some space and some head space to think about what exactly you want to do, which is a huge benefit of a transition. Before I talk about and finish up with some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, I would be curious to hear if you could pinpoint or put your finger on, what’s the most difficult part of being in between jobs when you don’t exactly know what you want to do next?

    Gisela: [33:53] Controlling your thoughts. Or at least, being aware of the thoughts that hit because they are driven by our fears. And gaining awareness of that and turning those thoughts around, for me, it’s the signature that honestly, I’m still failing. If I’m starting a podcast, for example, I want to talk about my podcast because I’m afraid for others to listen to me. Now, I’m adding this entrepreneurial program and you have to start doing a market analysis. I’m like, yes, but I’m terrified of going to speak to people because that seems like things are materializing and putting things to the world. It’s just there is a lot of mental load that we carry. That, to me, this is much more difficult than developing a business plan or developing anything else. It’s just switching the thoughts that we have because of our beliefs and because of society that has done a lot of damage to all of us.

    Joseph: I have a lot of internal chatter, I would say. Compared to the average person. Like, I lay awake at night and I think about stuff or I think about, “Could I be doing things differently?” or “Should I have approached something differently?” “Should I take on this new project or not?” You’re right. I think a lot of it is just controlling those internal voices and quieting them a little bit because it can get really noisy up there.

    The last thing I wanted to talk with you about — before we wrap up with what you are thinking about pursuing right now. I was speaking at an event last night. Someone came up to me afterwards and they were asking me about where I see well-being and health fitting into my professional priorities, which I thought was an interesting question. I was just wondering how do you think about that. Like, how do you think about where well-being and health and your own physical fitness? How does that fit into your overall priorities right now?

    Gisela: [35:43] That’s something that’s so critical to keep in mind; one’s health. Unfortunately, we don’t always put that on our priority list. But, to me, this is number 1. So anything that I do needs to work around that first priority. Not the other way around of me trying to adjust to X or Y in able to achieve Z. It’s like, no, everything now needs to — at least, for a few months, needs to support my health physically and my mental health; like both, and it’s not easy. Sad to say that sometimes, this can even be a privilege in some way, depending on one’s personal circumstances. So I’m very appreciative of the possibility of being able to do this, even if it’s just a few months.

    Joseph: Is there something that you wished you had discovered earlier on in your career that you have now discovered? Having gone through this transition and being in the middle of this transition.

    Gisela: [36:43] I got to experience first-hand that anything is possible. And sometimes, even if we have a plan, if we are open and not very close-minded to a specific plan, sometimes, we can even have surprises and life can take us into something beyond even our expectations. To me, staying curious, always alert, we can spot opportunities that if we are not open or with that mindset, we could miss very easily. I’ve seen that over and over with myself; also, in my surroundings.

    Joseph: Is there something in particular that you have learned about yourself as you have transitioned back home to Barcelona that you feel is important to share?

    Gisela: [37:33] I traded a lot of comfort for learning. So I have a full back of learnings that I still feel like some of them, honestly, I have not even finished processing yet because I’ve been on the go and also in a survival mode for like a very long time to craft my career and my journey. Like, right now, it’s a good moment to integrate those learnings.

    But I think that one of them is that, in my case, I experienced and I’ve seen that we are stronger than we believe we are, and that really goes a long way. Determination and persistence, all of these are clichés. But these are formulas that do work in most cases. And then, there is this conversation of, how much you need to push into something because, sometimes, it’s also a very good skill to have knowing until when we can push.

    Joseph: Any advice you would give to your younger self, now that you’re back in Barcelona, figuring out the next stage of your career?

    Gisela: [38:37] Putting more emphasis on my mental health in terms of managing anxiety. Learning about what anxiety is, and how it plays a role within each of us. As well as fear. Identify as early as I could, my fears. I wish I would have done that sooner.

    In general, something that we always forget as well, is to understand our emotions and really work on all that. Part of that, at the end of the day, encompasses mental health.

    Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you’re doing right now, Gisela. Could you just tell me a little bit more about “Creative Career Thinking,” which is the personal brand that you’re thinking about expanding, and perhaps writing about a little bit more? I know it’s still in its early days.

    Gisela: [39:23] “Creative Career Thinking” is a brand that I started many years ago just to kind of try to separate the identity that we talked about our [voice 39:31] and work in corporate. And then, the engagements, or our [voice 39:37]like, or any activities that you do outside the corporate world. So I always enjoy giving talks and speaking in classes or conferences about career development. So, I’ve been doing sporadic activities for the last few years, and it’s still currently ongoing. Something that I have a lot of fun with. Currently, I’m finishing a book. That’s been a passion project for me about networking that speaks to the creative audience. So this has been something that I’ve been doing aside my jobs.

    And now, that I have this time, I’m thinking if I should continue growing this brand. Although, I’m starting to think about a separate business plan. So like I said, my life is very messy. I don’t know what string to pull, but it’s like a part of different ingredients. I’m going to find out. Maybe in a few months, we’ll talk again and I’ll tell you which string did I pull.

    Joseph: I think these things are all a bit of a work in progress. And until you test the waters with it, you never really know if it’s something that is going to be fruitful, if it’s something you’re going to enjoy, whether it’s something that’s going to really energize you. So I guess, yeah, all you can do is just try a whole bunch of different things and see what sticks sometimes.

    Gisela: [40:55] And I’m also missing the corporate world already. But I’m trying to, again, tell my brain, “Are you missing it because it’s your habit?” Like, just really take the time and quiet that voice that always goes to our comfort.

    Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Gisela, for telling us more about your former life as an HR professional in the corporate world, your international moves, and also your return to Barcelona. I wish you the very best of luck with “Creative Career Thinking,” and figuring out the next steps in your career. And also, of course, getting better and taking care of your health along the way. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts today, and hope to cross paths with you again soon.

    Gisela: [41:37] Thank you again. I hope so. It’s been a pleasure.

    21 March 2024, 1:00 am
  • 1 hour 2 minutes
    Embracing Change with Anne Tumlinson- CR100

    Today marks our 100th episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast!🎉. For the past seven years, we’ve shared the personal stories of people around the world who have reinvented their careers, and today, I’m thrilled to have Anne Tumlinson, CEO of ATI Advisory and founder of Daughterhood, join us again on the show.

    Anne was the very first guest I interviewed for this show over seven years ago before it even launched, and today, we’re going to talk about how her career and life have evolved since then. She’ll share her reflections on her journey as a founder turned CEO, the complex dynamics of growing your own organization, and the impact changes in her personal life have had on her outlook on life, career, and her own perspectives.

    During a special Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll summarize my top takeaways from the nearly 100 guests I’ve featured on this show, including a montage of key highlights to help you understand the dynamics, challenges, and upside of changing career paths to pursue work you find truly meaningful.

    💡Key Career Change Insights

    1. Consistently showing up is half the battle when embarking on any major career endeavor.
    2. Your unique collection of gifts, talents, skills, and interests can fuel you to do work you find truly meaningful. You just have to open yourself up to fully tapping into them.
    3. Even when you’re building momentum and achieving “success,” still questioning whether you’re completely on the right track is normal.

    📒Resources Mentioned

    🚀Listener Challenge

    During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, my challenge to you is to decide what choice you feel you could make for your career that you can be proud of. One that you’re confident you can look back on 10 years, 20 years from now, and not regret. What matters most to you right now during this chapter of your life and career? And what step will you take to honor this?

    🎧Episode Chapters

    👤About Anne Tumlinson, Founder & CEO of ATI Advisory and Daughterhood

    Anne Tumlinson (ATI Advisory), Career Relaunch episode 100Anne Tumlinson and I have known each other for over 20 years. As one of the very first managers I had after I dropped out of medical school, she played an instrumental role in helping me navigate my first big career transition in my early 20s. She was also the very first person I ever interviewed for this show seven years ago, and she continues to possess a wealth of personal and professional insights that I and many of our listeners have found so useful.

    She currently advises the nation’s top public and private leaders in healthcare as the Founder and Board Chair of Daughterhood, a non-profit national community that connects family caregivers with each other for support and information. She also serves on the non-profit board for Mary’s Center, an FQHC, and the Board of Directors for Bluestone Physician Services and Harmony @ Home. Anne is a member of the National Academy of Social Insurance and was named an Influencer in Aging by Next Avenue.

    Anne spent her early career working in government, first in the office of Congressman John Lewis (D-GA) and then at the Office of Management and Budget. She joined the private consulting firm Avalere Health in 2000, growing and leading the firm’s provider practice and developing its first business intelligence product.

    💬Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    💬Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
     Leave Joseph a Voicemail
    You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

    🙏🏻Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast

    Vista Social logoVista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles.

    🎵Music Credits

    Thanks to Reeve for producing the music for this special 100th episode and to Electrocardiogram for composing the Career Relaunch® podcast theme music.

    ✍️Interview Transcript

    Joseph: Well, hello again, Anne. I am very excited to have you back on the Career Relaunch Podcast. Welcome back to the show.

    Anne: [05:00] Thank you. It’s exciting to be back.

    Joseph: The last time we spoke was a few weeks ago actually over dinner when I was in D.C., so we did manage to catch up a little bit. Before that, the last time we recorded a conversation between the two of us was way back in 2016. I’m not sure if you remember this, but you were the very first person I interviewed for the show.

    Anne: [05:24] I do.

    Joseph: Because the podcast hadn’t even launched. It did eventually launch with your episode being one of the first. Exactly seven years ago in September 2016.

    Anne: [05:34] It was thrilling because you did such a good job with it, and you made that beautiful illustration.

    Joseph: You were featured in the trailer, yes.

    Anne: [05:44] That was pretty neat to see that come to life so creatively.

    Joseph: Probably, the show may not have happened without you. Just to go back in time. So now, this is now the 100th episode.

    Anne: [05:54] Wow.

    Joseph: Yeah. I thought it’d be very fitting to have the very first person I interviewed on the show to come back and to share your story again, just to check in on how things are going.

    Anne: [06:05] That’s awesome. We’ve really been on this journey together.

    Joseph: Definitely. This is going to be a little bit of a different chat from other episodes. Because I guess the idea here is for us to have a bit of a conversation about how things are going for you and for me, and seven years after that chat we had back in 2016. At the time, on your end, you had just launched off on your own. You had just begun developing the concept of Daughterhood. You were a solopreneur. And now, you’re a CEO overseeing a whole team at ATI Advisory.

    For me, I was about three years into running my own business. Beginning my shift from one-on-one coaching to more content creation and public speaking. I wasn’t a father then, I am now. Your kids were living at home. They’re in a completely different phase now. So, a lot of change for both of us.

    I was hoping that we could organize this chat in the past, present, and future, where you were, what you’ve experienced along the way, and what’s next for you. Maybe you should go first here. Let’s just go back in time. Can you try to mentally transport yourself back to 2016? What do you recall you were focused on at the time? Maybe we should start with the personal. What was your family life like in 2016? What was going on with you personally? And then, we’ll get to the professional in a second.

    Anne: [07:23] In 2016, I called myself a single mom. I was co-parenting with my ex-husband, so it wasn’t I was in it all by myself. Certainly, I was the head of the household that I live in and the sole earner with two teenage children, 16 and 13. We were looking at colleges for my oldest child. Now, she has made her way all the way through college. She has graduated, and she is fully employed. My youngest is in college. So, I’m in a really different place in parenting. And, I got married in 2018.

    Joseph: Do I have this right? Your separation had not happened that long before we recorded our episode in 2016? Do I have that right?

    Anne: [08:15] Yeah. I separated in 2011 and was divorced in 2012. If you’ve never been through anything like that, this may sound weird. If you have, it will ring true. It was a 15-year marriage. It takes a long time to reset from that and get to your new normal. I definitely wasn’t quite in it yet. I was still trying to figure out who I was in the world without a spouse. When you’re married, it’s really hard to imagine just how much your identity starts to absorb being in that partnership. I was like, “Who am I in my personal world, and who am I in my professional world?”

    In the middle of all that, I quit my job and started my own enterprise, so to speak, which had two parts to it. One was supporting myself through independent consulting, business-to-business. And then, the other was developing this platform. I didn’t really know what it was going to become, but I knew I wanted to start to form a relationship with family caregivers who were taking care of their parents and have an interchange of ideas across this transom. That’s them in their day-to-day experiences, and me with my expertise, and for people who are listing my expertise as in aging and health policy.

    Joseph: How did you get interested in this aging topic? I know we haven’t talked a lot about your own parents that much. I am curious how did this end up being your focus.

    Anne: [09:56] It’s so funny you asked that question. Just as a quick aside, my kids are now in their 20s. They and their friends are all in the very beginning stages of, “What do I want to do with my life?” I have a lot of 20-somethings standing in my kitchen. One of them was there last night at 11 o’clock, asking me. He’s pre-med. He’s like, “How did you end up here, in doing what you’re doing?” They’re always interested in that story. He just asked me that last night. I was always drawn to the phase of life that is the last phase of life. I can’t explain why. Even as an undergraduate, I did my work or my psychology undergraduate degree on the last phase of life and aging.

    And then, my very first job out of college was on Capitol Hill working as a congressional aid to Congressman John Lewis from Atlanta, Georgia, who was on the Aging Committee and then on a health subcommittee. And so, I was able to jump right into that and I loved it. I love policy because I like the challenge of all of the different systemic parts and how do you think about systems. I also really like, in reason I started Daughterhood was because I felt I was missing that — you can’t really work on a system we don’t understand how it’s affecting people on the ground, on a day-to-day basis. Joseph, you were right there with me in 2014, when I was going through all of this. Just really in the heart of the struggle, so to speak. You held my hand and walked me across the bridge into entrepreneurship.

    Joseph: I remember that. That was a surreal moment for me. For people who don’t know this, you were my manager actually. You’re one of my very first managers I think, in full-time employment for me. This is after I dropped out of medical school. I was trying to figure out my life. I was one of those kids “who were kind of in your kitchen,” who was trying to figure out what to do next.

    Anne: [12:11] Yeah.

    Joseph: And then, we started working together professionally when I was a coach. I had just started off in 2013, so about a year into that. You’re one of my first clients, which was weird.

    Anne: [12:24] I know.

    Joseph: Kind of flip for me to be in the role of coach for who had been one of my coaches early on. That was really rewarding and really just a special, unique relationship I think that we’ve had.

    Anne: [12:41] It is. It was for me as well. The second we started to talk, you’d call me I think just to let me know. I was like, “Oh. Oh, this is what I need. Could you help me?”

    Joseph: I remember sitting in your office when I was your direct report in Washington, D.C. I remember you telling me about your kids at the time. This one, I was in my early 20s. And so, another major change I think for you, Anne, was in 2016, both your kids were at home.

    Anne: [13:13] Yeah. Now, they’ve grown up.

    Joseph: Where are they now, and how has that change been for you?

    Anne: [13:19] In 2016, my oldest was just looking at colleges. And now, she’s fully graduated from college and is in her first professional role working at the National Institutes for Mental Health, doing work she really likes. That’s a small miracle really, when you think about how hard it is to find work right out of college. She actually still lives with me because she’s saving money. All good Gen Z’ers have to do I think in this day and age.

    And then, my son is a rising junior at Emory University. He lives there or he’s getting ready to go on foreign study. My house feels full right now because it’s the summer and he’s home. And so, even though they’re here though, my relationship with them is completely different because they’re adults. I still see them. We spend time together. But, I only get involved in their lives when they ask me to. That’s drawing all these new boundaries, trying to figure out the relationship, and how to be a parent to an adult, that has been mind-blowing.

    Joseph: That must be surreal. I’ve got a 5-year-old daughter, coming up on 6. So, I guess roughly maybe the age of Grace when you and I worked together in D.C. I’ve always been curious what’s it like the day after, in your case, both of your kids are off to college and your house is empty. Do you remember that day?

    Anne: [14:52] Yeah. I had a much tougher time when my oldest left. Because that was the moment when I was going from one phase of life to another. When my son left, I felt more prepared for it. Honestly, I enjoyed it. I got remarried in 2018. Just about the time that my son — he lived here for a couple of years after I got remarried, and then he went off to college. So, it was enjoyable for me to be able to be in my home alone with my new husband. There was a lot of relationships still to discover and enjoy, getting to know each other in that environment.

    That was a nice distraction from having the bittersweetness of watching your children leave you, which is what they’re supposed to do, but it is still — bittersweet is the only word I can think of to describe it. It’s an incredible privilege to watch them go out. It’s thrilling to watch them go discover themselves, and go through all of the exciting things that they get to go through as young adults out in the world but it is also heartbreaking because your relationship with them is not the same. They don’t need you as much. The intimacy is to a certain extent diminished. That beautiful intimacy that you have with a 5-year-old, where you’re in there still in that magical, that 5-year-old is still in the world of magic.

    Joseph: Yes.

    Anne: [16:36] I will say this for all of you who have youngsters is that, what helped me a lot was that I had no regrets. I had worked very hard and I devoted myself a lot to my career. I also really had done everything I wanted to do with my children. I read all the books. We went on all the trips. We had all of the movie nights and the popcorn nights. I felt, as sad as I was, there wasn’t anything that I could have done differently to have gotten any less sad.

    Joseph: I know.

    Anne: [17:17] Life is just full of these, as now that I’m 56, just full of these transitions after transition after transition after transition. Just when you think something is one way, it changes. One other fact that in these last seven years is that also my parents went from being incredibly independent to my father getting very sick and died. And now, my mom is in her 80s and living in an independent living community. My kids are transitioning. My parents are transitioning. My business was transitioning. So, not boring.

    Joseph: I know that there’s a lot in there to unpack. I mean, this is a career show, so I would be interested in —

    Anne: [17:58] Yes.

    Joseph: Before we talk about the evolution of everything that’s happened to you over time, can you remember in 2016 just factoring in everything you just mentioned about the difference that was happening? Your kids are getting older, you have come out of one relationship, you’re just starting your business. What were some of your biggest concerns at the time? If you can remember back to 2016.

    Anne: [18:21] I was just concerned about paying the bills. That’s not the only one, but I think one of my primary concerns was money, just money. I was scared. I didn’t have any visibility into whether or not the business would be there. Maybe there’d be three or four months. Anybody who’s done consulting knows how this is, or professional services of any kind. You will have this onslaught of work. If you’re on your own, you have to do it all yourself. And then, all of a sudden, there won’t be any work. Instead of just enjoying the moment of break, you’re worrying.

    Joseph: You’re panicked.

    Anne: [19:03] About where that business is. You’re either freaking out because you worry about execution risk, or you’re freaking out because you’re worrying about whether or not there’s enough business. By the way, that has not changed.

    Joseph: Right. I think that does happen.

    Anne: [19:19] I’m still there.

    Joseph: I still have that a lot. I’m now a decade into doing this work. I wouldn’t say it keeps me up at night, but I definitely have this productive paranoia. I don’t even know if it’s productive. Sometimes, this is unproductive paranoia about what would happen if all the clients I now work with, what if they all went away, which a version of that happened to me in 2020 with speaking engagements. And so, I think as a business owner, you never take for granted, the business that you do have coming in.

    One thing I know that has really changed for you since we spoke was, at the time, you were a solopreneur and you’re, as you described, thinking where the next client’s going to come from. And now, you have a team of over 20, I think. Is it like 20?

    Anne: [20:04] Thirty.

    Joseph: Thirty now. Okay. You got 30 people you’re managing, whom you’ve hired. How did you make that decision? At what point did you feel like, “I need to bring somebody on”?

    Anne: [20:17] I was doing a lot of work that I am actually not that good at or efficient. I felt like wasn’t great service to the client. So, they’re paying me a rate that is encompassing of all of my expertise and my time in the planet, and I’m spending hours dealing with the spreadsheet or a PowerPoint slide deck. I contemplated a couple different models, it’s not uncommon to contract some of those things out through a 1099 relationship, or a contracting relationship. But, to get the constancy and consistency in service and delivery, I wasn’t that I thought, “Oh, this has to grow by some amount.” It was more that I felt if I didn’t do that, I was always going to be in a a scarcity mindset. I don’t want to be in a scarcity mindset. I want to be in a, “We have plenty of resources. We can do this. We’ve got what we need.” And so, there’s also the serendipity of their own.

    Then, there’s this person who is looking for a job, and I’ve worked with her before, and I knew what she could do. I was like, “She could really help me.” Another very interesting thing happened. Because obviously, if you’re worrying about money, and then you’re hiring somebody.

    Joseph: You’ve got to pay these people.

    Anne: [21:40] Now, you got payroll. I had a mentor who was a very wealthy individual, and he’d taken an interest in the work that we were doing in my career, which was nice. He called me and he said, “I will be your safety net for a while. So, if you need some money you can come to me.” What he said was — this is the awesome thing. He goes, “I don’t want you to have any excuse not to do this.”

    Joseph: Wow.

    Anne: [22:19] By the way, P.S. I could not get a line of credit at the bank. He was going to be my bank. And so, I took it and it worked out great. And then, in 2017, I hired a second person. Then, in 2018 was a slow year. It was a tough year. I thought, “This might not work.” I think we even talked about this in 2016, and that’s normal.

    Joseph: I’m still solo. I do contract out with independent freelancers to help me with this show and some other things, but I don’t have any employees. One of the challenging things for me is just my bandwidth, and that is because I’m by myself. I have been resistant to bringing anybody else on board. And so, I’ve just dealt with that scarcity that you have mentioned, and just sometimes turning away stuff.

    Anne: [23:08] That’s okay.

    Joseph: But, yeah, it’s a trade-off. It’s a trade-off.

    Anne: [23:09] Yeah. That’s exactly right. Some businesses are meant to scale the way that I’m scaling, and some businesses are meant to be sort of the individual level. Everybody makes a big deal out of scaling, “Scaling is everything,” it’s not. It’s just not. It comes with an enormous number of headaches. I will say — and this is where I think you and I are quite different. A theme in my whole life has been, a little bit of a leaping without looking.

    Joseph: Just go for it, yeah.

    Anne: [23:44] Yeah. I get impatient with the analytic piece of things. Whereas, you have so much patience and you’ll look and consider all angles. At a certain point, I’m like, “I don’t have the patience.” I can’t play chess or checkers. I don’t have the patience for that level of anticipating every move. I just go for it. The outcome of that is that sometimes there’s wonderful rewards on their side. But also, that I end up going, “I can’t believe I did that.”

    Joseph: It actually worked out.

    Anne: [24:20] I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but here I am.

    Joseph: Well, let’s talk a little bit about what you have observed, and maybe what has been on your mind lately after thinking about the evolution of your life, and also your business over the past seven years. What do you feel is going really well right now for you? And then, we’ll talk about the challenges in a second. What’s working and what’s going on for you right now?

    Anne: [24:46] Taking my life as a totality right now, I feel very solid. My mother, my mother-in-law are going through their last stage of life in their 80s. My children are going through a time of change. I feel I’m well-equipped, mentally and physically, to be solid. Be the solid center of their lives and my life, and it feels great.

    From a business perspective, what I have discovered is that I am really enjoying working on building a business. As opposed to working in the business, I very much still enjoy consulting. I enjoy the clients and the work that we’re doing in the subject matter. But also, the learning. Not just learning about business, but learning about I’m always motivated by the challenge of stepping into the role of CEO. I had to actually write down what my job was and post it on my board because I didn’t know. What does a CEO do? I had to think about, “Oh, I’m in charge of setting the strategy in the direction for the company, finding the resources people in talent, and solving the big problems.”

    Joseph: That’s a good list.

    Anne: [26:13] Those are my big three. Trusting people that you hire and not getting too into the weeds with their work and what they’re doing. And so, it’s been great. I don’t know that I’ve nailed it, but I think that it is exciting to be able to grow. It’s exciting to find out what you’re capable of. I think it’s iterative, you’re not capable until you put yourself in the position, and then you learn how to be capable. And then, you’re like, “Oh god!”

    Joseph: Yes. You almost have to do it.

    Anne: [26:44] I think a lot of people wait for the capability to come before they attempt it, but that doesn’t work that way.

    Joseph: Yeah. It’s very chicken or egg, isn’t it? Because you want to have the skills before you go out there if you don’t embarrass yourself. At the same time, you have to go out there and do it to develop the skill set. I remember, early on, I think I gave a TED Talk. It was in 2014, and that was one of the first talks I gave, which got me thinking about shifting from doing more one-on-one coaching to more public speaking. It wasn’t my best talk, but it got me out there and it got me starting to think about that, to experience what it’s like to do that. It is very hard to decide what’s going to be my first move in this particular space and when will I feel comfortable doing it. You’re right. I think it does need to happen just before you feel completely ready. Otherwise, you’ll never do it.

    Anne: [27:39] One hundred percent. There was a moment in my life very, very early on when I learned to overcome that feeling of shame or embarrassment for putting yourself out there. It was a similar formative moment in my life. Actually, to do with my dad and the advice he gave me in a social situation. It was very formative. I realized, “Oh, you can survive it. You can fall on your face in front of a lot of people and be fine.” That lodged itself in my subconscious. And so, I have been more willing than I think most people to have a more public failure, which isn’t to say that I don’t absolutely dread it.

    Joseph: Yeah, it’s not fun. That’s not the best time of your life.

    Anne: [28:32] You have to learn to tolerate it.

    Joseph: Yes. What have you found most challenging over the past few years? What have you struggled with? Whether it’s related to the scaling of your business or just running an independent consultancy, versus being an employee, or anything in your personal life, what’s been the toughest?

    Anne: [28:52] The theme that has been very challenging across personal and professional has been relationships. I don’t mean client relationships. When you scale quickly in your life, relationships change. I feel the same person. I’m the same person. But, I am seven years older, and I have grown children, and I have a parent who needs care, and I have a business that’s 30 people and growing quickly, and it has a lot of visibility out in the public space and a non-profit platform that also has visibility.

    And so, even within the business, just how people perceive you and what you are doing and what you say to them and you go from having these intimate, maybe this is the theme. Your children are little, and it’s very intimate. You’re in a small organization or you’re an employee with a team. It’s pretty intimate when you grow an organization. When you grow, sometimes, those bonds tend to fray. The role change. The sort of perceived elevation or distance, what it does is then, it has the potential to damage trust. Everybody has their issues, and their insecurities, and their desires, and they’re all colliding against each other in this organization now.

    So, the biggest challenge is, “How do I set up the infrastructure?” That human resources infrastructure, and the clarity around roles, and the clarity around expectations, and values, and mission, and that’s all quite challenging. I, in fact, hired somebody with expertise in human resources because I realized I was way out, way out over my skis.

    Joseph: Yeah. It’s more complicated than it can seem. Initially, you feel like, “I’ll hire these people and I’ll just work it out.” It can be complicated.

    Anne: [31:01] No. You just can’t even imagine all of the different things that come out. I mean, it’s just mind-blowing.

    Joseph: I’d also be interested in maybe talking through some of the things that you mentioned to me back in 2016, to revisit these ideas that you had at the time. I went back and, as you know, I was just in Chicago a couple of days ago. On the plane ride over there, I was listening to our old episode. One of the things that you mentioned to me was the idea that your self-worth was driven by your last full-time employer, versus your value coming from your own skills and knowledge and experiences.

    I was just curious how you now think about your value. Maybe this ties into what you’re just talking about, about your evolving role in your organization. How do you think about those days when you were full-time employed versus now running your own organization?

    Anne: [31:54] It’s still a challenge. Maybe the lesson is that you never stop questioning your value. Once the consultancy started to pick up steam and got off the ground, and there was 10 of us, or 12 of us, maybe I felt pretty secure. I was like, “I was doing a lot of consulting. I was helping people learn. I was teaching. We were coming up to speed.” Maybe there’s a break from having to question it.

    But then, a funny thing happened. Just I hired these amazingly talented people who are smarter than me and better at it than I am, and if the business is going to operate well, I got to get out of their way. And so, there was a period of time, and it’s still going on, where I think, “What do I have to offer this organization?”

    I think I may have told you when we had dinner, I have a really great friend and coach now, Gretchen Alkema, I was her grand team and she was in a foundation. And then, she left and she started her own enterprise. I brought many of the lessons and I told her about our conversations. And now, she’s out on her own doing strengths-based coaching. She’s like, “Your job now is to tell everybody where you’re going.” I was like, “Oh crap! That I have to know!”

    The value question is just ever-present. I think that might just be either my insecurity or maybe that’s just how we all are. We, as people, as humans, we want to be valuable. Sometimes, I jump in, and I’ll edit papers, or I’ll look at deliverables, and offer suggestions. I feel really valuable when I’m doing that.

    Joseph: Right.

    Anne: [33:50] How are we going to grow the business? I’m like, “I don’t know if I know how to do this.” I’m still questioning.

    Joseph: Figuring it out as you go.

    Anne: [33:59] Yeah.

    Joseph: One of the things that you mentioned to me also in 2016, was that a lot of progress is just about showing off.

    Anne: [34:05] Yeah.

    Joseph: Do you still believe that?

    Anne: [34:07] Yes. You know that feeling of panic? I’m sure you feel this way, too. I assume you do. Which is that the nice thing about getting a few years under your belt is that when you get into a trough from a business perspective, you can look back, you don’t have a history.

    Joseph: Yeah.

    Anne: [34:22] You can say, “Oh, look. There were five other troughs that always works out.” And that, this showing up thing and wrestling, just like I have a lot more faith now I think about this value question that if I just wrestle with it, the next thing will unfold. Then, shining your flashlight on just the next right step, it’s still scary. I could make a big mistake, make a bad decision, and it will affect a lot of people. I can only just do the best that I can. Showing up is everything. Consistency is everything.

    Joseph: I don’t know if you know this, but I featured a little clip from your discussion with me back in 2016. When you said that just because something is hard, it doesn’t mean you’re failing.

    Anne: [35:08] Yeah.

    Joseph: It’s less about talent and more about commitment and consistency. I think word for word, that is what you said. Because I play it a lot for people. Do you still believe that?

    Anne: [35:17] Oh, yeah. I get a lot of nice positive reinforcement now from the outside world. You can almost hear the tape playing in their head like, “I don’t know that I would have ever thought you could do this.” Me either! Me either. The only difference between me and the many, many phenomenal people who aren’t creating and building their own companies is that I just do it. I just do it. There is an element of taking risks. I do think that I have a tolerance for risk. It’s not about being particularly smart, or particularly talented. It’s about being willing to put yourself out there and just keep going.

    Joseph: Well, this ties into the last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up with what’s next for you. It was this idea that you shared with me about how the universe tends to respond when you open yourself up to change. As you just mentioned, just going for it and doing it. I am just curious to hear what you think of that. Now, when you think about your personal life — I guess I’ll just direct you to one idea here, which is just the fact you’re now remarried, but also anything in your professional life. How do you think about this idea of opening yourself up to change and putting yourself out there for that potential change?

    Anne: [36:47] I just believe in this, there’s a momentum in the larger fabric of the universe. There’s momentum. That our jobs are really just to start the momentum, and that you can put things in motion. I should just say, because I do strengths-based work with [unintelligible], and my top five strengths: ideation and activation, are among my top five. So, it’s easy for me to say, having an idea putting it in motion, having an idea, putting emotion. My biggest challenge sometimes is just actually to not put an idea in motion because there’s enough things in motion right now.

    Joseph: I’ve got a lot of ideas.

    Anne: [37:31] Not going to start playing the flute again, nope. Having those strings has allowed me to observe that when you put something in motion, and you put a little bit of muscle behind it, and you commit to it, physics law here where then it picks up steam. There’s going to be things that are going to come along that are going to facilitate that. It’s really cumulative. I’m seeing things happen now in my world that I would never have ever imagined. Like big companies coming and saying, “We want to acquire you.” It’s amusing actually.

    Joseph: I bet, yeah.

    Anne: [38:15] They know getting to what’s next, that’s not what I’m interested in. But, it’s a signal that there’s this momentum. Because what I’ve been doing is just, hands down, doing the work. I think you said this to me, and I still have it on my bulletin board. Yes, you did, Joseph. You said this to me.

    Joseph: I’m curious what this is.

    Anne: [38:34] Doing the ‘20-mile march’ every day.

    Joseph: Oh, right. Yes. The Jim Collins concept.

    Anne: [38:40] Yeah.

    Joseph: From his “Great by Choice” book.

    Anne: [38:41] I wrote down in 2016, I still have; anything truly great will take at least five to 10 years to build. At some level, “This might not work” is the heart of all important projects.

    Joseph: Things do take time. It’s very easy to just give up when you aren’t getting the traction that you want. One of my issues is just having such high expectations of what I think is going to happen tomorrow, and it doesn’t pan out that way. And then, I get disappointed by it. And then, the problem is that you might give up on it.

    Anne: [39:13] Right!

    Joseph: Or, you’re 99 percent of the way there, and right when you’re about to turn a corner, you drop it.

    Anne: [39:17] I have had some disappointments. Daughterhood, which is the non-profit platform. Joseph, I did not become as famous as Oprah. Remember? Do you remember me saying, “I want to be like Oprah for caregiving?”

    Joseph: I remember, yes. I want to talk about Daughterhood! Yeah, I do remember that you had a certain vision for it.

    Anne: [39:37] It’s not so much about not doing what you’re doing, but about reframing your expectations.

    Joseph: Yes. I know one of the things you mentioned to me also at the time was, and I’ll just ask you the same question again today. If you were to give your advice to your younger self, one of the things you said was about suffering less. I’m wondering what your perspective is on this now. Is there any sort of advice you might share with Anne in 2016 when you were in the earlier days of starting and running your business?

    Anne: [40:06] You’ve got everything you need. You’re not missing anything. I think that I’ve lived a lot of my life thinking that I wasn’t smart enough or talented enough. But, my strengths, your unique constellation of gifts is enough. It’s enough to do the things that are meaningful to you, and that’s all that matters. So, it’s not about success, as it’s defined by the world. It’s more about what it is that you want to get up every morning and do. You would absolutely have everything that it takes to do what’s meaningful to you on a day-to-day basis. There’s no question. Everybody does. I think that’s what I would say. Just remind myself that you are enough.

    Joseph: Well, I want to wrap up with what you are doing now. I know there are all sorts of things we could talk about. I’m probably most interested in what you just mentioned. At the time you had just launched Daughterhood Circles back in 2016, or you’re thinking about the idea of it, which was to provide women with these resources to care for their aging parents. How did you envision that going, and how has it gone, and what’s next for it? I know there’s a lot of questions wrapped up in that one question.

    Anne: [41:25] For people who don’t live in the United States listening to this podcast, we have a very broken system for supporting older adults and their families when their ability to function in their day-to-day life starts to diminish. They need support and services. There’s no front door to a system. There’s no front door to a front door. It’s just you’re really on your own. So, the idea behind that these grassroots circles formed by volunteers in every community was that they would serve as the sort of peer-to-peer coaching, and support, and connection to resources. Like, who better to tell you where you can go for things and people who’ve been through it.

    It turns out that trying to scale a grassroots volunteer-led organization that is highly disaggregated or disparate across the country is really, really hard. And, people still don’t know the answers to those questions. We really, really flailed for many years in trying to build this network of circles at the local level. We had a handful of really high-performing ones. We had a bunch that didn’t ever get off the ground. Eventually, we’ve pivoted.

    My father’s death in COVID coincided with really pushing me into a new approach, which is a virtual circle platform, and making it more topic-based. And then, we’re now getting ready to launch a whole new way of connecting our community to resources at the local level that will give them the resources they need to get going. We are moving it into a non-profit and getting the 501(c)(3) designation that will enable us to hopefully raise some money and truly scale. There are a couple of relationships that broke up between myself and some of our leaders and volunteers that were really excruciatingly painful for me.

    Joseph: I guess whenever you’re going through these moments of change and evolution, it’s hard to keep every relationship intact in a positive way. Just there are so many important parts.

    Anne: [43:39] Yeah. You fail people. You can’t meet everybody’s expectations for everything all the time. Sometimes, they’re coming from a place that you couldn’t control it even if you wanted to. Like, you could trust yourself under a pretzel and they would still — doesn’t have anything to do with you.

    Joseph: Yes.

    Anne: [43:57] But, it’s still painful. I’m really excited that I have an incredible partner now, and all of this somebody who sort of appeared at the right time to help me turn this next phase into a reality, and that’s made all the difference.

    Joseph: Last question then for you, Anne, because I do want to end on a positive note here because it sounds like you’ve gone through so much change, and you’ve grown your organization, your life has changed over the past seven years, both personally and professionally.

    At the beginning of our chat today, you mentioned that little animated trailer that I put together to launch this podcast a few years ago. In that trailer, we featured something you said at the time about how you wished you had known just how amazing it is to be in the process of doing something new. What has been the most rewarding part of your career change journey?

    Anne: [44:48] It’s still the creation of something that is not lived in the world before. I mentioned this at the beginning, working on the business. Probably, a little bit more of a big picture way of saying that is, getting up every morning, getting to think about what’s next. For me, it’s 100 percent about creativity. But, you have to have all of the business fundamentals there, and you have to have all the right people who know how to execute. I mean, there’s a lot of things that go into it.

    But, when I’m really in the zone, when I’m really feeling great, it’s when I’m thinking about, “We’re going to be a 50 percent business in a year and a half, and here are the things that we’re going to be doing, and here’s the content we’re going to put out around that, and the reports we’re going to write, and the money we’re going to raise for Daughterhood.” Just being able to not just have the idea and not just activate it, but then move it along and see it appear in the world. It’s my art. I’m not an artist. I’m a terrible artist. A terrible musician. I’m a really bad gardener. All of those things, but this is my art. And so, for me, it’s a creative process and that’s what gets me up in the morning. It makes it all worthwhile.

    Joseph: Thank you so much for chatting with me again today and about your journey.

    Anne: [46:13] Thank you for having me.

    Joseph: Yeah. You’ve gone from independent consultants to now, the CEO of your own advisory firm. Your life has changed so much over the past few years. I appreciate you sharing with me and everybody else what you’ve learned along the way. Thanks for joining me on this very special 100th episode of the show.

    Anne: [46:31] Woo-hoo!

    Joseph: Also, for your willingness to record that chat with me way back in 2016 that really planted the first seed to get this podcast off the ground.

    Anne: [46:39] Joseph, you’ve done amazing work. You’ve helped so many people along the way. So, huge congratulations to you as well.

    Joseph: Thank you.

    Anne: [46:48] I’m reflecting that actually. There’s a little bit of a container for us to have this conversation that is important. We need to do this. We need to have a way to go, “Okay.” Gosh, I didn’t realize. I got married, my dad died, my kids grew up and left the home, the business grew. All in seven years. I don’t think I fully reflected on all that. So, thank you.

    Joseph: Of course, of course.

    Anne: [47:14] I really appreciate it.

    Joseph: Thank you for sharing it all with me, too. Yeah, it’s just nice that we can stay in touch after all these years. How long is it? It’s 20 years now.

    Anne: [47:22] Well, we’ll be in touch for the rest of our lives.

    Joseph: I hope so, yeah. I hope so. Well, in the meantime, best of luck with your work at ATI Advisory, the future of Daughterhood, and of course, the rest of your life there in D.C.

    Anne: [47:34] Thanks.

    Joseph: Hope to talk with you again soon, Anne.

    Anne: [47:36] Okay.

    28 September 2023, 12:00 am
  • 55 minutes 4 seconds
    Making Things Work with Carla Stickler- CR99

    Think for a moment about the original blueprint you once had for your career. What did you want to be when you grew up? How did you envision your life would look? And what has your actual experience been like?

    If you’re like most people I cross paths with, your career trajectory has been very different from what you imagined. Your ability to roll with the punches and absorb the shocks that inevitably come up along the way of any professional journey can make a huge difference to where you end up.

    Broadway musical star turned web engineer Carla Stickler explains how she managed to balance multiple career endeavors while pivoting into a brand new industry on episode 99 of the Career Relaunch® podcast.

    In the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll also explain how to embrace and manage the inevitable messiness of career transitions.

    Key Career Change Insights

    1. Sometimes, you can just tell when you’re excelling and making the most of your strengths in your career. The more positive feedback you get from others, the more this reinforces the fact you’re on the right track.
    2. You never know when you’re going to turn a corner in your career. With enough patience and persistence, you may eventually have your big breakthrough.
    3. Think of your first job in a new sector as an opportunity to clarify exactly which aspects of this new work appeal to you and aligns best with your interests.
    4. When you’re considering opportunities that may feel like a reach, instead of just saying, “why me?” try saying, “why NOT me?”

    Resources Mentioned

    Listener Challenge

    During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to identify one area in your career where your desire for the ideal set of circumstances may be resulting in procrastination and getting in the way of you starting the next chapter in your career. Are you still waiting or the perfect solution to come to you? Are you waiting until the moment when you feel completely ready to take a plunge into something new?

    Try and accept that pivots are imperfect and imprecise. Acknowledge that there may be no perfect time to make your move. Understand you may never have 100% clarity on exactly what you want to do next. And understand that the biggest challenge is not tackling but rather accepting the uncertainty of it all. Rather than getting stuck in a state of inaction and paralysis, just do your best to just take one action that creates some progress in the face of this uncertainty.

    Episode Chapters

    About Carla Stickler, Broadway Star Turned Web Engineer

    Carla Stickler, Career Relaunch® podcast episode 99Carla Stickler is a Web Engineer at Spotify with over a decade of performing in musicals under her belt. She is best known for her performance as Elphaba in Wicked on Broadway and has performed her own cabaret as a guest entertainer onboard Norwegian and Disney Cruise Lines. With a BFA in acting from NYU-Tisch and masters degree in theater education from NYU-Steinhardt, she was a voice teacher in New York City and made appearances as a teaching artist and guest speaker at Thespian Festivals around the country.

    Carla is passionate about reframing the narrative of the “starving artist” and encourages young artists to take agency over their careers by developing skills that can provide them with financial stability alongside their artistic journey. She’s also involved with Artists Who Code, a growing group of artists exploring the world of tech, where she mentors other artists as they are beginning their journey into tech.

    Find out more about Carla by listening to this episode of NPR’s Up First podcast (where I first heard about her), reading this HuffPost interview featuring Carla, or checking out this NPR interview she did with Scott Simon.

    Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
     Leave Joseph a Voicemail
    You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

    Thanks to Harmoni for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast

    Harmoni Desk LogoThanks to Harmoni Design for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself for years, and Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out.

    Interview Segment Music Credits

    Interview Transcript

    Joseph: Well, welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast, Carla. It is great to have you on the show. I’m so excited to talk with you today.

    Carla: [03:07] Thanks so much for having me. I can’t wait to get into it.

    Joseph: All right. Well, let’s talk about, first of all, what has been keeping you busy at this moment, in your career and also your life.

    Carla: [03:18] Well, at this very moment, the thing that is keeping me the busiest is I recently started a new job. Almost, I’m like a month and a half in now at Spotify. And so, that is what has been keeping me the most busy right now. Just trying to like to learn everything, figure out the code base, and figure out what I’m doing.

    Joseph: You are a web engineer there, is that correct?

    Carla: [03:41] Yes, that’s correct.

    Joseph: Without getting into specifics on the projects you’re working on, can you give me a sense of exactly what a web engineer does at Spotify?

    Carla: [03:53] Like most people know, they have the app on their phone, that would be our mobile engineers who work on the app that you probably use daily. I work on the website of the podcast side of things. So, I work on the web being what you see on your computer when you’re using the podcast part of Spotify. I work on the front end, so I work on what you see; not the back end, not the data, not all the stuff that makes everything run.

    Joseph: Very interesting. Well, that front-end user experience is, obviously, really important to the success of Spotify over the years. As a user myself, I certainly appreciate the incremental improvements and changes to the app made over time. What about personally, what’s been occupying your time outside of work?

    Carla: [04:40] I love that Spotify has a great respect for work-life balance. So, I do take advantage of my personal time. The one thing that has been occupying all of my time, and I’m going to dive right in and get real personal. My husband and I have been doing fertility treatments now for almost two years. We are coming to a close with them very soon. That has just been kind of occupying all of the other space in my life.

    Joseph: I can imagine that. It’s one of those things that many people don’t talk about. But then, if you start to ask around with friends, you start to realize a lot of people are dealing with this when you have no idea that they were dealing with it on top of everything else they have going on. I know it can be a very intensive process.

    Carla: [05:27] Absolutely.

    Joseph: Okay. Well, let’s talk a little bit about your former life. You haven’t always been a web engineer at Spotify. I’m going to want to talk with you at some point about how you ended up in this very different industry from what you were doing before, which is you used to be a performer on Broadway. Before we get into the details of the shows that you were in, can you just take me back to your childhood and how you came to this idea that you wanted to perform?

    Carla: [05:59] I grew up in a very musical family. My mother was a classical pianist, who was obsessed with Stephen Sondheim in musical theater. My grandmother was an opera singer, who had a voice studio downtown at the Fine Arts Building here in Chicago. My father was in a — there were five of them. They were called “Stuck in the ’50s,” and they sing doo-wop in my hometown.

    Joseph: Wow. Okay.

    Carla: [06:24] I just grew up in it. Just everybody in my family was in music. So, it made sense that that was kind of what I was going to do. I was in a choir at a young age. I was encouraged to pursue the things that I wanted to do artistically. I went to summer camp up at Interlochen Arts Camp up in northern Michigan in Traverse City for all my summers of high school. I ended up going there for my senior year of high school. It was kind of this thing where I was just on this path. There’s a lot of momentum around doing theater and music, just non-stop. I didn’t have a lot of other things that I did. I was very focused on music here.

    Joseph: Were you thinking that you were eventually going to do this professionally at the time? Was that the plan?

    Carla: [07:09] I went back and forth when I was younger. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to do a musical theater, or if I wanted to be an opera singer. I ended up going to college, my freshman year of college at Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, to study opera. I was like, “I want to be just like my grandma. I want to sing opera.” That was kind of the plan.

    My freshman year ended up having a little bit of a setback. I had to have surgery on my vocal cords after finding out I had a vocal cyst. I dropped out of school after a year. I went home to Chicago. I worked in a deli for a semester and was just kind of stuck trying to figure out what I was going to do next. At that point, I decided to do just acting. So, I went to NYU and I studied just theater, and I didn’t sing for three years.

    At one point, I had a teacher who was like, “Why aren’t you singing?” I was a very emotional child, so I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m doing in my life. I think I want to be an actor. I’m very confused.” They taught me how to belt and I learned how to kind of just re-imagine what my voice could be. That for me, was I would say kind of the first time in my life I learned how to kind of pivot and how to reframe what I wanted to do, and realized that I could kind of have a little more power over who I am.

    So, I learned how to belt and things just kind of took off. Like, I was like, “Oh, this works. This makes sense. I’m good at this.” And then, I just kind of fell into it. Then after graduation, I got an agent and I started working immediately.

    Joseph: Yeah. One of the things I’ve always wondered about, Carla, is how does one know whether they’re pretty good at singing and maybe above average versus being like top-tier Broadway material? At what point does that become more obvious to you?

    Carla: [09:01] You feel it. You feel the response that you’re getting from other people. You feel the way that you feel while you’re doing it. Once I learned how to belt, which is the thing that I did in my Broadway career. I’m a Broadway belter.

    Once I learned how to do that, I just remember it feeling so weird, but it just felt really good. It felt right, and I was getting positive responses for my teachers, things just kind of started snowballing and falling into place. I don’t think we always get to make the decision, but I was getting all this really good feedback. So, I was like, “Oh, yes. I’m going to follow this.” And, that’s kind of what I tend to do. I’m like, I choose something, and if I’m getting positive responses, I tend to follow that path, until I don’t. Either decide I don’t want to do it anymore, or I decided I wanted something else.

    Joseph: So, you get an agent. What was one of the first roles you ended up landing?

    Carla: [09:59] The first big job I got right out of college, I ended up playing Liesel in “The Sound of Music” in Asia. I was like 19, or no, I was 20. When I graduated, 22. I was 22. I went to Hong Kong for like four months and played Liesel, the oldest daughter. The “16 Going On 17.”

    Joseph: Yeah, I remember.

    Carla: [10:22] It was so much fun. I just like had the best time. We were famous in Hong Kong. Our pictures were on billboards. Everywhere we went, everyone knew who we were. It was very, very fun.

    Joseph: How long were you doing that before you ended up moving on to your next role?

    Carla: [10:38] That was a four or five-month gig. When it ended, I didn’t work for a year after that. I had a really big kind of reality check. I had been fortunate to book that, but I still wasn’t a union actor. It was overseas, so it wasn’t a union gig. I was struggling to be seen. Even though I had an agent, it was really hard for me to get in the door.

    And so, the only thing that I knew how to do was take classes so I could meet people. I took a bunch of musical theater classes. I started taking dance classes all the time. I started waiting in long lines to audition first off because I wasn’t union. Every time I would get an audition for my agent, I would get a coach and I would work hard on it. Because my goal was just to get my union card so that I could audition easier. I didn’t study musical theater in college. So, that year was my education in musical theater that I really kind of crammed myself while waiting a lot of tables, bartending, and doing a lot of other things to make money so I could live in New York.

    Joseph: I’ve always wondered because you always hear these stories about people who eventually end up on Broadway or who are on Broadway, and they’re waiting tables, or they’re doing these other sort of blue-collar jobs. Did you have like a time limit in mind for yourself before you would maybe move on to something else? Because I would imagine it takes a little bit of time to gain some traction in this very competitive industry.

    Carla: [12:00] Funny that you asked that because I haven’t thought about this in a while. But, right at the end of that year, I was two seconds away from quitting. I was so over it. I hated waiting tables. Nothing was happening. I remember the guy that I was dating at that time, we had taken a trip to California and we were out at the beach. We’re like, “Maybe we should just move to the beach, and wait tables, or like open our own theater company. I don’t know.” We were about to just like leave New York. I was just so fed up with that whole year. It had been frustrating and hard.

    Literally, while we were on that trip, my agent called. They’re like, “Can you be in New York in two days? You have a final callback for ‘Mamma Mia’ for the national tour.” I was like, “Okay.” I had been in for the show a few times at that point. And so, I flew back. I got a terrible cold. I had probably what I thought was one of the worst auditions of my life. And then, two days later, I found out I booked it and had to go out on tour a week later.

    When you were kind of like, “How do you know you’re doing well?” I always take it, it’s like little science. I’m like, “Well, I guess I am supposed to do this.” So, my plans of quitting kind of got put on hold. I was like, “All right. I’m going to go on tour. See? The universe is spoken. I’m supposed to do this. I’m not supposed to quit.” So, I just kind of kept doing that. I went on tour then for about a year and a half with “Mamma Mia.”

    Joseph: So, you’re in “Mamma Mia,” huge show, very well-known around the world. You would eventually end up getting cast in “The Wicked” musical. How did that all transpire for you?

    Carla: [13:27] I’ve literally done three large shows in the entirety of my career because I was really fortunate that I got into kind of these long-running shows. I did “Mamma Mia” for about a year and a half. And then, I left to go get married the first time. I was a vacation cover for that company then for the rest of that year and a half. I would fly out to the tour and I would cover for a couple of months.

    At the beginning of 2010, I ended up booking “Wicked.” And so then, I went on tour with that for three years. And then, back to New York. And then, I was in New York for the rest of the time.

    Joseph: Just going through this one step at a time, what was your role during those first years with “Wicked”?

    Carla: [14:06] From 2010 through 2011, I was the understudy for Elphaba. Which means, I was in the ensemble, eight shows a week, and I was the second cover. So, in “Wicked,” Elphaba has a standby and an understudy. The standby is an off-stage cover. They’re the first person to go on. They’re on a principal contract. They will always perform the role of Elphaba if the lead role cannot go on; the lead person who plays that role. The understudy only goes on if the other two people cannot go on.

    You’re in the ensemble eight times a week. You understood you’ve rehearsed the role, and you have no idea when you’re going to go on for the role. I did that for two years. And then, I did the standby role for a year on the tour. And then, after I left that, I moved into the Broadway company to go back into the understudy role. I was the understudy for the entirety of the time that I was there on Broadway. I would occasionally go in as a swing contract because I would cover a bunch of other things. But, I was always understudying Elphaba.

    Joseph: Elphaba, for those people who are not familiar with the show — I have seen the show. She’s the lead role.

    Carla: [15:17] She’s the green one.

    Joseph: She’s the green witch and lead role in a huge, huge musical. As the understudy, what are you doing during the show? Because you’re saying you’re on standby. You are literally waiting backstage.

    Carla: [15:34] It would depend. If I was the standby, I would be off-stage. I would just be kind of hanging out when I was on tour. When I was the standby, I had an Etsy store and I made bracelets backstage because I had nothing else to do. I guess I was fortunate that I performed the role a lot while I was on tour. We just happened to be in places where some of the girls that I covered maybe had allergies or whatever was happening with them. So, I got to perform the role a lot while I was on tour.

    As an understudy though, you’re in the show eight shows a week. So, you’re in the ensemble so there’s no time to do anything else. That standby role is my favorite thing to do ever. It’s like the perfect role. Maybe you play Elphaba once or twice a week, and then you just get to do whatever you want the rest of the week. You have to be at the theater to do that. That’s the coveted get. In my opinion, that is the perfect job.

    Joseph: Could you give us a sense of how much of this you were doing each week? You said you’ve got, obviously, got multiple shows a week. How many shows are we talking about every single week?

    Carla: [16:33] Eight shows a week.

    Joseph: I’m assuming if you’re playing the role of Elphaba, you’re in heels, you’re wearing a wig, you’re in full dress. Does that take its toll on you after? Well, I’m just trying to imagine delivering that level of energy every single night. Whether you’re in the ensemble or if you’re actually performing the role of Elphaba. Both just require like 100 percent every night. What’s that like?

    Carla: [16:57] I found my ensemble role to be hard on my body because I danced a lot, and I am not actually a dancer. But, for some reason, the understudy has to dance. So, I wore like three-inch heels, and heavy, heavy wigs. My neck, chronic neck issues from wearing those heavy wigs. In the Broadway company, the stage that we danced on is not flat. It’s what you call a raked stage. It’s lower in the front of the stage and higher. It goes on a slight angle. Our stage is one of the highest raked I believe on Broadway. The one at the Gershwin in New York.

    So, imagine you’re wearing a three-inch heel on a raked stage. Now, it’s like you’re wearing a five-inch heel. I used to wear this very tall, flat-top wig. And so, my head, you’re constantly — your body’s rebalancing for like this crazy angle. So, your neck and all these muscles that you wouldn’t think are over-compensating. And so, I ended up with like neck injuries, and I ended up with some rib injuries from dancing with a dance partner with a very bony shoulder that got me in the side of the rib, and then a bunch of foot injuries. I have hip injuries.

    I literally spent all of my free time when I was in that show in New York at physical therapy, the doctor, the gym. Just like trying to make sure that my body was ready to go that night because I had so many things going on. That’s the most exhausting part of being on a Broadway show.

    Joseph: I was going to actually ask you, yeah, what’s the best part of being in a big Broadway hit and what’s the toughest part of it?

    Carla: [18:36] Yeah, that’s the toughest part.

    Joseph: The physicality.

    Carla: [18:38] Yeah. It’s the thing that the audience doesn’t see. They don’t know there’s this idea that performing on Broadway is really glamorous.

    Joseph: Yeah.

    Carla: [18:47] It is. There’s a certain aspect to it. It’s really fun. The fact that I get to go out on stage and tell the story every night, and sing these songs, and be a part of this incredible show, that’s the best part of it. When I get to meet people and they tell me how much the show meant to them, that is incredible. But, the stuff that people do not see, the constant having to take care of your body and your voice.

    As an understudy, I always like to say it was like I had a little Elphaba sitting on my shoulder at all times. I had no social life. I couldn’t go out late. I had to make sure I got at least eight to nine hours of sleep every night. I couldn’t drink alcohol. I couldn’t talk too much. I had to make sure that I was warmed up every single day because I also never knew when I was going to perform that role. I would find out at the last minute always because I was the understudy and not the standby. It usually meant that there was an emergency if I was going to be performing.

    I performed a lot, which meant there were a lot of emergencies, which meant I couldn’t live my life because I had no idea when those things were going to happen. And so, I kind of always had to be ready. That’s why I say that standby role is that coveted role because you know you’re going to get to do it at some point within the next couple of weeks. But, as the understudy, it could be six months, it could be a year before I go on. And so, it’s a lot of just having to keep up your physical body and everything so you can do that role at a moment’s notice.

    Joseph: Yeah. I could just imagine the uncertainty of it and just not knowing what your day is going to look like, or thinking you might go on stage and then you don’t.

    Carla: [20:26] It’s emotionally exhausting.

    Joseph: Yeah. I can imagine. At what point did you feel like this toll that the performance was having, both physical and also just the emotional, what you’re talking about not knowing when you’re going to perform? At what point did you feel like you may need to make a change? Do you remember what that moment was for you?

    Carla: [20:49] The first one in 2015, when I left the Broadway company full-time, I knew that I couldn’t keep doing the show eight times a week. I was just exhausted. I had a lot of medical stuff going on. And so, I went to grad school. I decided for myself that if I was going to step away from performing full-time, the respectable thing to do would be to go and get a master’s degree in Education. I got a master’s in Theater Education at NYU, and teach theater because I really like teaching theater. I like teaching voice, something I always felt very drawn to. I like helping people.

    Joseph: You’re teaching high school kids at that time.

    Carla: [21:29] I was doing both. So, I was going to Thespian Festivals in the summer, and I was teaching, working with high school students. And so, that’s kind of what inspired me. But, I knew I wanted to work with college students. I wanted to kind of work on a little bit more of an expertise level. So, I taught between 2015 and the pandemic, so 2020, I taught on two faculties in New York. I had a private voice studio that I ran. I loved doing that but I also simultaneously was still going in and out of “Wicked” during that time.

    I thought teaching was going to give me the freedom to have a little more ownership over my career. Teach, but then I was also still performing, occasionally, and I was getting frustrated with the business throughout all of that. It wasn’t quite what I thought it was going to be. I was an adjunct professor. I didn’t make a lot of money. I didn’t have health insurance. I just kind of kept realizing that I didn’t know. I was like, “I don’t know if I can do this forever.” I was exhausted. I felt like I was just constantly hustling. Looking into the show, performing for a couple of weeks here and there, and then maybe doing readings of new musicals, and then having a full load of students, and just being absolutely drained.

    And so then, in 2018, I had been at “Wicked” for a couple of weeks — the thing about going into “Wicked” is, every time I would go back, they would kind of like dangle a carrot in front of me. They’d be like, “Oh, Carla. It’s so great to have you back. We have to get you back in that standby role.” And then, the role would come up and they wouldn’t cast me in it. I just kind of was like, “I keep bending over backward to come in and help you out.” They would call me a Sunday morning and be like, “Can you come in for the matinee?”

    Joseph: Oh, wow. Like, that afternoon. Okay.

    Carla: [23:12] Yeah. I remember, one 4th of July, I was in Philadelphia with my friends. They were like, “Hey, Carla. Do you think you can be here tomorrow? We need somebody to cover for two weeks.” I was like, great. And so, I rented a car and drove back from Phil, like wherever I was in Pennsylvania to help them for two weeks. I did a lot of things like that. I thought if I gave them my show, that I was loyal to the show, they would give me the thing that I wanted, which was to move me into that standby role. Because that was the thing that I loved because I loved performing that role. I didn’t love dancing.

    And so, in 2018, I had this moment where I realized, “Oh, they’re never going to give me that role. They’re never going to let me play it.” I kind of just melted. I was like, “I can’t do this.” Like, I can’t teach these college students to go into a business that is just going to chew them up and spit them out. I can’t keep doing it. I was like, “I don’t know how to inspire these people to go into this business that is making me feel so terrible.” And so, I was like, “I need to do something else.”

    Joseph: Now, before we get to that transition, I also know that on top of all of this, do I have this right? That between 2015 and 2017, you were also working on a cruise line?

    Carla: [24:31] Oh, yeah. I also did.

    Joseph: On top of going to grad school. Can you just explain how that worked?

    Carla: [24:39] How that’s possible? How was I doing things at once?

    Joseph: Yes.

    Carla: [24:42] I mentioned I have ADHD, that’s how I was doing it. No. I was finishing grad school, and I was working on Norwegian Cruise Lines, doing my own show. I was a guest entertainer. The cruise went from Sunday to Sunday, from New York to the Bahamas and back. I would, on Monday, in New York. I would go to classes on Monday and Tuesday. And then, on Wednesday, I would fly to the Bahamas, meet the ship there. Cruise back with them to New York, do my two sets Saturday night, and then I would get off the ship Sunday morning, and I would go home, and I would rinse and repeat.

    I did that non-stop every week for about six months. And then, for another year and a half, I did about one sailing a month. Like, every week. Maybe once a month, maybe twice a month. I switched off with another girl. So, I did that kind of intermittently.

    Joseph: So, you’re balancing this solo show on Norwegian Cruise Lines with your grad school, while also being called in every so often to do “Wicked.” You’re flying back and forth between New York and the Bahamas. When you did decide that it was time for you to look at doing something else, what steps did you take to figure that out?

    Carla: [25:52] I’m like, “Oh, shiny things.” I’m like that kind of person. I see something that like grabs my attention and I will run towards it. In 2018, a friend of mine came to my birthday party. He had been a songwriter, that’s how I’d known him. He had gone to a software engineering boot camp, and was like, “I just got a job as a software engineer.” It was just like the perfect timing. The second he said it, I don’t know why I thought this. I was like, “Oh, I bet I can do that.” I went home and I just started teaching myself how to code. I was totally sucked in. I would spend hours and hours on my couch, on my computer, learning HTML and CSS and JavaScript. I was like, “This is so interesting and so different than anything I had ever done.”

    Joseph: How are you teaching yourself this? Was it online courses? Did you get books?

    Carla: [26:46] The program that I used was freecodecamp.org. I’m a big fan of their stuff. It’s really accessible. They have a lot of front end. They do also do some back end. I think they have Python. I use them mostly for JavaScript, HTML, and CSS.

    And then, I was also digging around a bunch of bootcamp prep programs. So, my friend had gone to the Flatiron School. So, I was looking at their bootcamp prep. I also looked at Grace Hopper’s bootcamp prep. I need a lot of different pathways into the material to understand it. So, I just found a bunch of different ways to get into this material so I could see it from a bunch of different angles and understand the concepts. So, I did that. And then, I decided to do the bootcamp in the summer of 2019, my summer break.

    Joseph: I’m just trying to understand. You’re going from being a performer, belting in front of huge audiences, which strikes me as quite an extroverted type of activity. And then, you’re moving into learning coding by yourself, sitting in front of a screen. They seem like such different worlds and existences to me. Was that difficult to make, the transition, or was it welcome?

    Carla: [28:03] You know what’s interesting? While performing is an extroverted activity, I guess or a job career, understudying a role is a very solo job. I spent a lot of solo time going over the role. I would spend time by myself in a rehearsal room walking through the show. By myself in my hotel room, singing through the show and visualizing my work. So, there is a lot of introverted kind of solo work that goes into being an understudy. Yes, you do have to be on stage with other people. So, you do have to know how to connect with other people.

    The thing that I knew how to do was how to work by myself. I knew how to learn things. I had learned how I learned, and that is something I do solo. And so, doing software engineering really kind of tapped into that solo work that I love. Also, I am a ceramic artist. I do pottery. Pottery is also very focused solo work. I can sit at a pottery wheel for four hours, five hours, and just throw mugs all day long. I love very focused work. And so, software engineering really tapped into that for me. I guess I do. I do sometimes crave people. But, I’ve found other ways to get that.

    Joseph: Yeah. I guess you’re spending a lot of time by yourself in hotel rooms and backstage and just quietly rehearsing things with yourself. So, very interesting.

    Can you explain how you then transitioned into your first formalized role in this world of coding and software engineering? I understand your first role that you had wasn’t exactly the perfect role for you, but it helped you transition into the industry.

    Carla: [29:52] I have the great fortune of starting my job search in March of 2020. We all know what was going on then, and everybody was on a hiring freeze. Nobody would hire me. Nobody would even interview me for software engineering roles. I had a couple of calls with people. What I remember one, at the end of the call, she said to me, “I’m really sorry. I hope I didn’t waste your time. I just really wanted to talk to you. You seemed like an interesting person, but I don’t really have a role for you.” I was like, “Okay.” She’s like, “But I’m so interested in you. I can’t wait to see what’s next for you. Please keep in touch.” I was like, “Great. Okay.” I was like, okay, I’m networking. I guess that’s what I’m doing. I could not find any roles.

    The first interview that I got was for a customer success role at a tech start-up in New York. It was fully remote. I charmed my way into the role. I had no idea what I was doing. I bombed the interview. I sent them an email like, “Listen, I can learn this. I’m good with people. If you teach me how to do it, I will be able to do it.” They gave me their job. I did it for a year. It was not the right role for me. I discovered I like people; I do not like working with customers. That is a very different kind of people.

    The great thing about it was it gave me and my husband the opportunity to move back to Chicago. I had a full-time job. I had health insurance. Those were the most important things to me. So, as soon as we had some stability, we moved back to Chicago. We bought a house. We got to be near our family. And then, once we settled here, I started applying for software engineering jobs and ended up at a company in Chicago. I did that for two years, and it was great.

    Joseph: That was G2.

    Carla: [31:34] Yes.

    Joseph: Which is they do software and service reviews. Now, before we get to your current role, I know in late 2021, you ended up kind of going back to your former life a little bit. Can you explain to me what happened after you had started your role as a software engineer at G2, about a year into your role?

    Carla: [31:57] I am so grateful to G2. They were so supportive when this happened. I kind of mentioned earlier how “Wicked” would ask me to do things very last minute a lot. That was kind of the thing I’m very good at. I’m very good at a last-minute pop-in, to do something that is very difficult.

    It was Christmas vacation of 2021. It was the day after Christmas. I was on my way to Michigan to go have a great time at a cabin with a bunch of friends. I get a call from “Wicked,” and they were like, “Hey, what are you doing? Do you want to fly to New York tomorrow and come help us out? We’re running out of Elphabas. Everybody has COVID.” At that point, I was thinking through all the girls that I knew in New York who covered the role in the past few years, and everybody had COVID or just had a baby.

    And so, I was like, “Well, it’s me. Okay.” I wasn’t sure if I wanted to go just because I was so excited about my new life. I was like, “No, I got to do this.” I need to kind of just for me, for myself. I was like, if I get one more chance to play this role, I think I can kind of put it to bed. I think I will be content with Broadway and not feel like I missed out on anything. Because I hadn’t, at that point, played Elphaba since 2015. Even though I’ve been covering it, and understudying it, and rehearsing it, I hadn’t performed it in a long time. So, I was like, “Oh, this might be a nice opportunity.”

    So, I flew in. Luckily, didn’t get COVID. I did get to perform the role two nights while I was there. It was unexpected. I was kind of just doing it for myself. And then, the moment kind of went a little viral. I had a lot of people reaching out to me and news organizations. Everybody wanted to know who this crazy software engineer was that could just play Elphaba at the drop of a dime. It was a little bit exhausting. I was ready to kind of just be a software engineer. And then, all of a sudden, it launched me into this space of a lot of people wanted to talk to me about what I had done, and feeling like I needed to be an inspiration to a lot of other people. I love that but also, I said my husband and I have been trying to get pregnant for a long time. So, it was like in the middle of all of these things, and I had so much going on. It was overwhelming.

    Joseph: There are some times, Carla, there’s this allure to our former life. It can be very alluring and almost tempting to revert back to what used to be a very normal and kind of our day-to-day existence. And yet, you’ve now seen this other side of the world. You’ve seen this other side of an industry that you maybe thought wasn’t quite right for you. And then, you discovered this whole coding world. I can imagine that would just create all sorts of internal dialogue is what I would probably be having with myself during that time.

    Carla: [34:46] A lot of like, “Who am I? What am I doing? Am I doing the right thing? Have I made the right choices?” The teacher in me is like, “How can I help other people?” It was overwhelming. A lot of good things came out of it, but I wasn’t quite ready for all of it. So, a lot of opportunities were missed just because I couldn’t keep track of everything.

    Joseph: Well, you eventually just would remain in the software and web engineering space. What triggered you to eventually decide to move to Spotify, which is a recent move you just made earlier this year?

    Carla: [35:18] I loved G2. I was a full-stack engineer there. It was a great first job for me. I got to learn so much about who I want to be as an engineer. I always tell people who are kind of getting into engineering, “Your first job is not going to be your forever role. Your first job is to learn about what is going to be required of you in this space.” Especially, if you’re changing careers from an entirely different field. Your first job is to learn the lingo, learn how to exist in this space, learn what your opinions are, and figure out who you are as an engineer. For me, it was great because I really discovered at that role that I love front-end work. The artist in me loves the design aspect of front end. I love making things look pretty, and I’m drawn to that aspect of engineering.

    And so, when this role kind of came up, a friend of mine works at Spotify and he’s like, “Hey, we have a role. You should apply for it.” I was like, “Oh, I don’t know if I’m ready.” And then, I was like, “You know what? I’m never going to feel ready. I’m just going to do it.” I spent weeks just cramming so I could do well on the interviews. It just kind of one thing after another. I was like, “Oh, I am ready. I actually do know more than I thought I did. I just spent two years doing this. I know so much more about who I am, and the space, what I want. I’m much better at articulating that. I know how to answer these questions. I know what I’m doing. Why not me? Why can’t I get this job?” And so, I keep saying it feels very on-brand for me to work at Spotify, just because it’s a music company.

    Joseph: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

    Carla: [36:57] Yeah. Of course, I would work at Spotify. So, it’s really nice. It feels like a nice landing spot right now.

    Joseph: Yeah.

    Carla: [37:03] I would like to stick for a little while.

    Joseph: Yeah. It is an interesting intersection of the work that you’re now doing and the work that you had been doing in the past. Quite neatly packaged up.

    So, the last thing I want to talk about with you, Carla, before we wrap up with a very interesting and important initiative of yours that you mentioned to me before, is just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. As I was researching you and your story, and reading about some of your past interviews that you’ve done, I know one of the things that you said before was that, being an understudy and an actor teaches you to be brave. This change that you have made from being a performer to someone who’s now working in the world of software web engineering takes a bit of a leap of faith. How were you able to find your courage to make that leap of faith?

    Carla: [37:52] The courage has come from all the times that I’ve had to change my mind or all the times that I’ve fallen and had to get back up. I just discovered through all of that, that the world doesn’t end. What’s the worst thing that’s going to happen? As long as I’m safe. Leaving a job, getting fired from a job, having to have that surgery on my vocal cords, anything. All those little moments of having to kind of overcome something and pivot and do something else, really reminded me when I was ready, I was like, “Oh, you know what? I can do this. Why can’t I do this?”

    I always used to say, “Listen, I survived a divorce. I could do anything.” Like, “I survived playing Elphaba on a moment’s notice. I flew across the country to go play her. My debut was a mess, but I did it and it was great. Like, the first time I played Elphaba.” I have all of these little stories of things that I did that I think are crazy things that I was able to do. And so, when I look at that, I’m like, “Well, if I could do that, why can’t I do this?” And so, it’s just been like a series of reminding myself that, “Well, I can do more than I think I can. If I can just kind of shut that thing out of my brain that says no.” Why not, instead.

    Joseph: You also did an interview with Monica Torres in 2022 for a HuffPost article. One of the things that struck me that you said in the article was that you feel like, especially around the arts, people have to commit a hundred percent to being an artist. Why do you think that people feel this pressure to contain themselves within a very specific career path? Even when that could potentially be limiting to their lives.

    Carla: [39:35] In particular with the arts, it really goes back to the message that we all receive when we’re young. It’s that, well, theater and music, it’s so hard. You should only do it if you can’t imagine yourself doing anything else. That is one of the most toxic things we can tell young people because it really pigeonholes them.

    The kids who do decide to go into the arts then believe that “I have to commit. This has to be everything. I have to give everything in my life to this thing because I made this decision.” Whereas everybody else, maybe it scared them to go in, so everybody else just didn’t even explore it because they thought there was no room for them to have the arts in their life if they wanted to be a part-time artist. So, you don’t really give kids the message that being a part-time artist or being an artist can look however you want. And so, we end up creating this idea that it has to be everything. So, we have to give it 100 percent.

    We have to be willing to put up with toxic behavior in the industry. We have to be willing to put up with low wages and no health insurance because that’s what it means to be an artist, that’s what it means to be an actor. I don’t want to get too much into the strikes that are going on right now. But, the WGA strike and the SAG strike. It’s all a reflection of this idea that actors and artists will work for nothing because they love it. That’s not fair because we will. Artists love it and they’re passionate about it. So, they’re willing to give up a lot for it and that’s not fair to us because then we burn out, and we don’t get paid what we’re worth, and we can’t manage all of it. Because the people with all the money aren’t respecting that we also deserve to have liveable wages and all of those things.

    It’s hard. There’s this feeling of if you can’t give it all, can’t do it at all, might as well quit. That’s something I’m still exploring. What does it look like? What does art look like in my life now that I’ve kind of stepped away from that full-time pursuit? How can I do art and not feel burnt out? How can I do it for me? How can I do it and still love it and enjoy it, without giving it 100 percent? Because I can’t do that anymore.

    Joseph: You sound like you have a lot of different facets to your professional life and lots of different interests, which is wonderful. I’m just interested to hear what you’ve learned about yourself along the way of this very interesting career change journey.

    Carla: [41:58] Two things. One, I’m much more resilient than I give myself credit for. Two, I’m smarter than I think. It sounds silly every time I say it. But, as a woman, as an artist, these are things that I don’t think we tell young girls enough. And so, I just always assumed I don’t think I ever thought of myself as a smart person, as like an intellectual person. And so, to have gone into engineering, I’m like, “Oh, I am smart. I can figure things out. I can write code and solve difficult problems.” That, to me, means that I’m a smart person. And so, it validates that for me, which is nice. To be 40, and finally believe that I’m a smart person.

    Joseph: Well, speaking of this intersection of their different interests in your career, I’d love to wrap up with something I know is really important to you. Can you tell me a little bit more about “Artists Who Code”? What exactly is that?

    Carla: [42:54] At the beginning of 2020, when everything shut down, a bunch of friends and a bunch of people that I knew were kind of like, “What do I do? I don’t know what to do?” You learned how to code; how do I do that?” Some other friends of mine who I met during this time had started a Slack group just because they were having the same thing. Their friends were asking them the same question because they had been performers, they had quit performing. People were like, “How do I do that? I need a job. Can I learn to code? Is that something I can do?” They started a little Slack group.

    And so, a friend of mine connected me with them, and I just started funneling everybody into this group. And so, over the past few years, this group has blown. We have hundreds of people in the group. They’re all artists who’ve all decided they want to learn how to code, or learn design, or get into tech somehow. And so, we spend a lot of time helping people explore bootcamps and have conversations around, “Is there a way to balance both? How could I be in tech and be an artist or a musician?”

    It’s a really beautiful group. I love being a part of it. I do a lot of onboarding. I introduce people to the group, and I talk to them, and I help them with their LinkedIn profiles and their resumes and stuff. It’s a nice space to kind of encourage artists to remind them also that they’re smart, that we are all capable of doing more than we all think that we can do. It’s a cool group. I’m very proud to be a part of it.

    Joseph: That sounds like a wonderful initiative. I know you have your hands full with a lot of different things right now. So, I just wanted to thank you again for telling us more about your former life as a Broadway musical performer, your transition into the software engineering world, and also the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. So, best of luck with your role there at Spotify, the mentorship works you’re doing, and also everything else you have going on personally right now.

    Carla: [44:45] Thank you so much for having me.

    31 August 2023, 12:00 am
  • 50 minutes 38 seconds
    Advocating For Yourself with Claudia Bruce-Quartey- CR98

    If you’re like most people I cross paths with out there, talking about your accomplishments or showcasing your achievements may not come that naturally to you. Communicating your successes can feel like you’re bragging or shamelessly self-promoting. Asking for what you want can feel intrusive or presumptuous. And just sharing your own accomplishments with others can feel awkward or forced.

    At the same time, if you don’t advocate for yourself, you run the risk of disappearing into the background. If you don’t drive visibility for your work, no one may be aware of your accomplishments. And if you don’t ask for what you want, opportunities are unlikely to just fall into your lap.

    In episode 98 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Claudia Bruce-Quartey, a political scientist turned key account manager shares her thoughts on why making a career change often involves a leap of faith and why you have to be the one to advocate for what you want. I also share some thoughts on how I manage the delicate balance between modesty and self-advocacy during the Mental Fuel® segment.

    Key Career Change Insights

    1. Focus on the things you can control, not those you cannot.
    2. Sometimes, you just have to take a leap of faith in your career and jump.
    3. The onus is on you to make yourself seen and heard in your career.

    Listener Challenge

    During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, my challenge to you is to pick one aspect of your work that you feel deserves more support . . . and to advocate for it. Maybe it’s a project you feel deserves more visibility within your organization. Or an overdue promotion you feel is worth getting onto your manager’s radar. Or a piece of career news you’ve been keeping to yourself but want to share with your network.

    Whatever it is, take ownership of your career and proactively promote it. If you don’t advocate for it, you can be sure others won’t either. And you might just be surprised how people respond.

    Episode Chapters

    00:00:00 Overview
    00:01:07 Introduction
    00:03:44 Discussion with Claudia Bruce-Quartey
    00:42:38 Mental Fuel
    00:48:45 Listener Challenge
    00:49:25 Wrap Up

    About Claudia Bruce-Quartey

    Claudia Bruce-Quartey

    Claudia Bruce-Quartey has followed a career path that’s required self-advocacy throughout. Raised in Germany as a first-generation immigrant after her parents moved there from Ghana, Claudia eventually completed her Master’s Degree in Public Administration in France and most recently relocated to Switzerland.

    Originally a political scientist with no knowledge of IT, Claudia’s now a Key Account Manager for the software company Red Hat. She also passionately works with underrepresented youth and female professionals to help them confidently speak about their accomplishments and ask for what they want in their careers.

    With over 8 years of experience in the Swiss Tech industry, Claudia describes herself as an agent for transformation, on a mission to create equal representation and opportunities. She’s also the author of the book My Hair, My Choice, a book that encourages young children to understand that being unique and different is great.

    Follow Claudia on LinkedIn and Instagram. Join her newsletter to access that worksheet she mentioned during our conversation and learn more about how to cultivate confidence at work.

    Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
     Leave Joseph a Voicemail
    You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

    Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch

    Grammarly LogoThe Grammarly app finds and corrects spelling and grammar mistakes
    to make your writing more clear and concise, leveraging AI to make suggestions based on your context and preferred writing style. I use it nearly every day myself across all my desktop applications, Office documents, and mobile device. Download Grammarly for free at CareerRelaunch.net/Grammarly.

    Interview Segment Music Credits

    Episode’s Interview Transcript

    Joseph: Hello, Claudia. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is so great to talk to you on this show.

    Claudia: [03:50] Hi, Joseph. Thank you so much for having me.

    Joseph: Okay. Well, let’s get started by first of all talking about what you have been focused on at this moment, in both your personal and professional life. What’s been keeping you busy?

    Claudia: [04:04] My children. First and foremost, I’m a mother. I’m a mother of two. We are about to head into the big summer break. This is what’s keeping me busy. Also, preparing everything at work in order to make the transition to holidays as smooth as possible. I am a key count manager working for a major open-source software company in Switzerland, and this is kind of my main job. Secondly, I help women advocate for themselves. That’s what I do passionately and I love doing that. So, these are the three key things that are keeping me busy. If not, it’s summertime, I love going out with my bike.

    Joseph: Sounds good. Let’s take those one at a time here. You said mother of two, you got summer vacation coming up. How do you balance your ongoing demands as a key account manager there at Red Hat? With idea that I’m assuming, your kids are not going to be in school most of the day. How do you balance that on a practical and personal level?

    Claudia: [05:02] I think the key word here is flexibility. And then, my partner, of course, helps me out a lot with regard to how we manage our schedules. The key part here is really flexibility. Being able to do remote. The pandemic has done us, actually somehow, a great favor in understanding that you can do your most effective work without having to be on-site every single time. That’s one thing. And then, setting the expectations with customers, but also at home, and setting boundaries. I think this is the most important part.

    Joseph: Before we go back into your past, can you also explain just a little bit about what you do as a key account manager for Red Hat? What’s your day-to-day look like?

    Claudia: [05:49] The easiest part to say is that I work in sales. I’m a key account manager. As a key account manager, my day-to-day job consists of helping customers through digital transformation. Every customer today needs to be at the forefront of innovation, at the forefront of their competition, and be successful. That is through tech and through IT. My job as a key account manager is that I support roughly about six accounts on this transformation with the solution to their open-source solution that provides. The easiest way to understand is that everything that happens in the background. When things run smoothly, that’s how Red Hat provides its services. When something breaks, you know where to find us. That’s the easiest way to describe it.

    Joseph: Well, I know that you haven’t always been a key account manager for Red Hat. You haven’t always worked in sales. In fact, you are in a very, very different sector before. I would love to hear more about your time working in political science when you started off your career. And then, we can move forward from there. Maybe the best way to start here is just to get an understanding of, how did you get interested in political science originally?

    Claudia: [07:02] That’s true. I never even anticipated being in sales or being in the tech industry. Everything that had to do with STEM, it was repellent to me. So, when I graduated and then started studying in 2010, for me, naturally, I gravitated towards international organizations, and then also policies. Not per se, being involved in politics. That’s a big misconception for anyone that thinks, “Okay. You’re going to political science to become a politician.” It’s not that. For me, it was really integrating international organizations, being in international relations, the United Nations or European Union, being in one of these institutions. With that being said, there were no sales involved; there was no tech involved or so I thought. That was kind of where I started off and where I really found myself. I thought that this would be my career.

    Joseph: Now, I was just in Washington, DC last month, Claudia. I used to live and work there many years ago.  Have you been to DC before?

    Claudia: [08:15] I’ve been to DC last year.

    Joseph: Okay. You’ve been there recently. One of the things you might notice about DC is it’s one of those places where the professional scene is kind of unique compared to other major cities. Because there are people there who certainly work in the more traditional corporate for-profit world, but you’ve got a lot of professionals there. Especially, young professionals — me, including, when I lived there, who are much more focused on the non-profit, governmental, more social policy-type, cause-based organizations. So, that’s what I would describe as a major split in the professional world. Why were you originally drawn to that world, and not initially the more corporate-like, more for-profit side of the professional world?

    Claudia: [09:05] Some is also part of my heritage. I’m originally from Ghana. I was born and raised in Hanover, Germany. For me, I wanted to create an impact that would either help advance our community or help advance Africa, in general. That’s why also, international relations was so important to me to be able to shape policies or shape programs that would help advance Africa as a whole. More importantly, also Ghana, and then also the Ghanaian community within Hanover. So, that is the reason why I was rather drawn towards that.

    Also 2010, 2012, there were lots of different programs out there, especially for young people. For me, I was a youth mentor also. Everything and anything around helping the youth out, and with regards to their professional development, with regards to their integration into society, is something I was very, very much drawn to. I wanted to professionalize that. The European Union, at that point in time, first of all, there were not a lot of people that looked like me inside of this organization. So, for me, it was really, “Okay, I can make an impact here with my voice and also with my work.” So, that’s the reason why I was naturally drawn to that.

    Joseph: How were those early days for you as you were looking for professional opportunities in that space? How did that transpire for you?

    Claudia: [10:27] Lots of these opportunities come through either connections or just sheer hard work. Because for me, I had different types of opportunities, of course. Lots of them were either very, very short-term or were entry-level positions. For example, I used I lived also in Paris during my studies. At the same time, I was working. I was working for a governmental institution over there. It was very short-lived, number one. It was faced by multiple short-lived opportunities, that’s one thing.

    Secondly, the pay wasn’t also the best, to be transparent. I was looking at myself and the vision that I had created about myself of what it means to be what I thought would be successful, and that was not it. To have a master’s degree and still be struggling in finding a real proper job and a long-term job. This is kind of also where I was really questioning myself whether or not this is the path that I want to take. Even though I love it, I wasn’t sure whether my love, my passion for the field would sustain me there.

    Joseph: That’s really interesting, Claudia. One of the things I hear from people as they are either embarking on a new career path or even just the career path they had thought they wanted to go on is sometimes, the going is a bit rough and it’s a bit bumpy. I suppose one of the decisions you have to make is, do I keep trying to make it in this industry or do I walk away and do something else? How did you think about that? How could you tell when you should keep trying and when you should call it quits?

    Claudia: [12:12] That’s very much a good question because I struggled with that a lot. Because I was looking, “Okay. What are the skills that I can actually apply within this industry or within the field I was working in?” So, I speak five languages. Maybe anything around languages, and could help sort of translation jobs. For example, I was one in more facilitating conferences. So, there are a lot of different areas actually within the field, which is great. The field is very rich.

    Again, finding these opportunities, at least for me, posts to be a challenge. As I was also growing, and graduating, life caved in. I got married. Also, I had a baby. This is what’s really the turning point for me. To get an understanding is that, “Okay. First, I’m single and I can hustle.” But, with someone else in this world where she depends completely on you, on you to make it happen, things shifted very quickly for me.

    To me, the turning point was in 2015, when I had been in a position that absolutely had nothing to do with what I had studied. It was an entry-level sales position. I got to the realization, “This cannot be it. There has to be a better way.” To be honest, I didn’t know what this looked like. I certainly didn’t think that it was IT. I just knew something else has to come up for me.

    Joseph: Let’s talk about the transition that you went through here. Things are taking a little bit longer than maybe you had expected to gain some traction in the political science world. You have gotten married. You’ve got a baby. Now, you’re feeling like the phase of life that you’re in right now might require you to reconsider your career options. Take me through the transition as you went from what was political science to then eventually a sales role. The first question I have about this is, how easy was it for you to let go of the idea of pursuing political science?

    Claudia: [14:14] That was very difficult. Because I chose political science after having taken a break from my studies for a year. So, when I did my A-Level degree, I went to France for a year to find myself, to find what it is that I want to do. I knew, again, nothing about STEM. I knew the law wouldn’t cut it. Because also in Ghanaian communities, either you become a lawyer, a doctor, or a banker. These are the three career paths that you’re open with. Anything else, we don’t know, so you don’t pursue it.

    So, I have to find something where I can still become successful, and political science was that field where I could bring so much of my abilities into it. And then, studying it, doing my bachelor’s degree, doing my master’s degree in France, and then not finding a job in which I could thrive, not finding ground in a field that I had studied and had worked in for some time was very tough. I was like, “Now, I’m out of my studies, I need to have a proper job. I need to have a contract.” It was the very basic necessities of, I have a job, I have a contract, there’s a long-term thing and I see myself progressing in that career. I didn’t see that.

    Then, I was like, “Okay. Will I keep doing things that are not working and dragging my entire family into it? Or, will I start opening up my eyes towards opportunities that are out there?” So, I started then, not randomly, I would say more openly applying to jobs that were outside of my field. Some had the sales component to it but definitely not the role that I’m currently in and the career I’m currently pursuing.

    Joseph: I know along the way, if I’ve got the timing right here, I’m just going to broadly describe them, as the stop-gap or like transitional hold-yourself-over-for-a-while jobs.

    Claudia: [16:16] Yes, lots of things.

    Joseph: Can you give me a sampling of what were some of the other jobs you took just to make ends meet, just to hold you over while you figured this out?

    Claudia: [16:23] Wait tables. I was a waitress. I was teaching children at some point in time. I did translation jobs along the way. I help people with some administrative work also. It’s really little petty jobs that kept me along the way, that kept me afloat. I was a tour guide for a very, very short amount of time.

    Joseph: In France?

    Claudia: [16:48] In France, right. What are the odds, right? I’m from Hanover, Germany. I am Ghanaian. I go to France and became a tour guide. It was a very, very short amount of time. Somebody couldn’t fill the role, so I hopped in. I also promoted flyers. Different kinds of brands and shops and just works outside giving out flyers and promoting flyers. The accumulation of that brought more and more frustration, very much frustration. Because it wasn’t steady. There was no strategy behind it. It was just, “Okay. What am I doing to get to the next paycheck?” To me, that wasn’t it. I just had a much bigger vision about myself and where I wanted to see my family than what I was currently doing.

    Joseph: How long did that period last for you?

    Claudia: [17:40] Right after my pregnancy, I think about a year and a half. To me, it was an eternity.

    Joseph: Yeah. I’ve had those phases in my career also. I have actually waited tables briefly also. I worked in a retail store for a while. It can feel like a very long time, these transitional periods. Even though we’re talking a few months to a year, it can feel like an eternity. You eventually decided to do a masters in France, as I understand it. What did pursuing an advanced degree allow you to do?

    Claudia: [18:15] In 2010, exactly, I was still pursuing a career in political science. I had not let go of that idea. I thought, “All right. Well, let me have an advanced degree. Let me have it in a foreign country to open up my chance to be considered for roads inside of the European Union, inside of the big NGOs.” Because this was the profile that they were looking for. Somebody that is international, versatile, has done several things and understands the system.

    To me, it was like, “Oh, great!” It opened up opportunities. Again, being able to work in some of the French institutions, in different cities, in Paris. At the end of the day, it all didn’t help me to really build the career that I was looking for. It helped me today, absolutely. Because I think all of the experiences that I made moving from Germany to France and then coming here to Switzerland, have absolutely helped me. Because I know today, for a fact, that it is my stop in France that helped make the transition to Switzerland very smoothly because I speak French.

    Joseph: So, how did you eventually make your foray into the tech industry and the sales role? What was the first breakthrough for you in that sector?

    Claudia: [19:37] There was a program that was being run by Cisco. Cisco, at that point in time, was looking for junior sales representatives. The way it was conveyed to me was, “Hey! Yes, this is a tech industry, but look at all the things that IT touches.” This is where I started to listen up. I was like, “Hey, it’s true.” To me, the perception of tech was you have to code; you have to be a nerd. When I was studying, the people that I saw pursuing anything in tech or engineering were nerds. When they opened up their textbooks, I understood absolutely nothing.

    This is not the field that I want to be in. But this program was completely different. This program was something that I was already doing but just realized was sales. In every type of industry or every type of job also that I got, and being qualified/overqualified, I was still able to sell myself somehow and sell the fact that I’m the best candidate for this position. That type of presentation skills, that type of sales skills, helped me then make the transition. Again, it was, someone saw my CV, and being headhunted. Someone saw my CV and said, “Hey. We believe you’ll be great in this industry. You would be great for this particular company.” I just gave it my all. I just gave it my all. I said, “Okay. I have nothing to lose at this point in time. I am jobless, so let me go.”

    Joseph: Before we started recording, Claudia, when we spoke before, you had said that navigating careers for women can be quite lonely, costly, and scary, without a support system or without some sort of a road map. What were those early days like for you in a brand-new industry in tech, in sales? Do you remember what it was like?

    Claudia: [21:34] In Switzerland?

    Joseph: Yes, in Switzerland.

    Claudia: [21:38] Yes in Switzerland, definitely. It was definitely a moment. The beginning was very exciting. Going through all of the interviews, and being given the prospect of joining an industry that gives you the chance to establish a career. That was what I was going for, the idea that I had. I didn’t know what I actually signed up for. I didn’t know that I was signing up for an industry that was chronically underrepresented by women, and then women that look like me. Women that were at the intersection of women, Black, mothers. So, I fell into a very, very traditional company then at that point in time. It was, yes, Cisco, but there was a partner in between. So, I worked with a partner organization.

    Yes, even though there were small bits of support, it was very lonely and very scary. Because I had no knowledge and no background in IT. I had no knowledge, and no background in sales, besides the academy and the sales program that I went through. It was pretty much that I was pushed into the cold water to start doing the job. Which, in the end, helped me get into the job and get the ropes of this job much faster. It is because, naturally, I’m a person that doesn’t give up easily. I can tell you that I shed lots of tears. I think six months into Switzerland, I was very much doubting whether or not this was the right decision to take, to make, and to bring my family here.

    Joseph: This is probably a hard question to answer but, how much of that challenge do you feel you attribute to just the fact of being in a completely new industry? How much of that do you attribute to being an underrepresented minority female in the tech industry?

    Claudia: [23:22] Sometimes, one or the other plays more. Because, in the beginning, again, I went in with an open mind. I didn’t go in with, “Okay. I’m a woman. I don’t see a lot of women here, so this might be it.” I was trying to understand what will this industry give me and how can I apply my knowledge, and be more knowledgeable. Because in my understanding, if you become more knowledgeable, things will get easier. That was, for me, the baseline. What can I do professionally? What can I control? The fact that I’m a woman, or I’m a Black woman, or a mother; these are things I cannot control. So, I focus on the things that I can control.

    When you then go up the industry, move up the ladder, and then there are still certain glass ceilings that you face, there’s where you start questioning. When you walk into every single room and you’re the first or the only. When you are being questioned on certain things that your male colleagues are not being questioned on. When you face challenges that you make clearly don’t even recognize as challenges. Here’s where you stop asking yourself, “Hey, is this normal or is this because I’m a woman?” So, yes, in the beginning, it was really the knowledge gap. Then, eventually, very quickly, I understood it is not just knowledge. It’s really very much also the fact that, surely, there are not enough women here.

    Joseph: I do want to come back to this topic toward the end of our conversation. Because I think it’s an important one that navigating, not only being a minority in terms of your experience, but also minority in terms of how you look, where you’re from, and being underrepresented in that way. Right now, I would be interested to hear about the evolution of your career in the face of all this challenge, you did manage to actually progress and navigate your way through the tech sales world. Can you describe what was the evolution like for you going from that first role at Cisco to what you’re now doing for Red Hat?

    Claudia: [25:20] I started really at the bottom. Meaning, I was a business development representative. Even though my title was account manager, my role was entitled to bring in new business. This is really business development. Meaning, cold calling, prospecting all these types of things. And then, further down the line, there was the evolution in account management after I had gained knowledge, after I had understood really how do our solutions help our customers, and how can we also help broaden the market.

    I started really with small and mid-sized companies, to prospect on them. And then, further down the line, I became an account manager properly for mid-sized companies. Also, completely leading the French-speaking market for the company I was then working with. Also, as a second — this is where really everything that I learned within politics science came in, was building their relationship with our external partners. That was very much important also in transitioning into that role solidifying that relationship that we had with external partners.

    Joseph: That’s interesting you mentioned political science. Because, obviously, one of the major challenges and I guess opportunities in any organization is to be able to navigate the politics of the organization. I know you mentioned that you could feel it playing out in your current workplace. Can you just share more details on how did that training and education in political science end up benefiting you in a completely, and seemingly, unrelated industry?

    Claudia: [26:57] One major factor that attributes to the success I find currently, and also the rewards that I find currently, is my ability to communicate, my ability to present in complex environments and situations, and build the bridge between how a tech solution can help the business. That’s one thing. Within political science, mostly also, you have lots of data. When you go through lots of data sets, you have to make sense. You have to make sense with the data that you have for different stakeholders. This is also something that I do day-to-day; convincing stakeholders, internally and externally. In external, the solution that we’re providing is the best one. So, I would say communication, definitely. Stakeholder relationship also, secondly.

    And then, reading the room. As in something I would even say, very intuitively, understanding the dynamics of the room. Understanding, “Okay. Can you bring this to the table or not? Can you have this discussion right now or not? Or do you need to convince different stakeholders individually before you come to the bigger table?” This is very much politics.

    Joseph: Well, before we talk about a few of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey, Claudia, I would be remiss if I didn’t ask you a little bit more about your life in sales. For anybody who’s interested in switching into sales, and maybe this is someone who has had zero exposure to sales, has maybe had no experience in sales, what’s something that you think they should know that you wished you had known about the world of sales before making the decision to pursue that route?

    Claudia: [28:44] I think one thing that I encourage everyone to do is first, just give it a try. There’s a huge misconception about what sales is. We have sleazy car salesmen or women that are trying to oversell you and underdeliver. But, in essence, professional selling, there’s an art and there’s a science to it that entails lots of different elements. Such as negotiation skills, communication skills, and consulting. It is really the consultative approach that, to me, was very appealing inside this industry.

    If you look at the challenges that customers and companies face today in order to serve their customers better, it is through technology that we help them advance. If you have any type of transversal skill; such as being a good writer, being a good communicator, being a mathematician also, any of these transversal skills that they have. So, being very analytical, being structured. These are the types of characteristics, hard skills, and soft skills, that are being currently looked out for at companies. The most important lesson is just give it a try. Don’t limit yourself.

    Joseph: That’s a good point, Claudia. I don’t know if I told you this before, but many years ago, I sold life insurance for a large financial institution in Hawaii. I have to say before I went into sales — and this is coming from somebody who was going to pursue a career in medicine. I would say that I did have a sort of a negative perception of the sales industry. Like, pushing products and services onto people, trying to convince and persuade people to buy things they don’t really need. I have to say, I really had my eyes opened when I was in that sales internship. That it is a lot of times about helping people. It’s about helping people identify what can actually benefit them in their right careers. What’s one or two skills that you feel you’ve actually developed as someone in sales that you feel have been especially important to you, in both your professional life but also in your personal life?

    Claudia: [30:54] Being able to help people. We have the notion, or at least, I have the notion that if we help people, it has to be non-profit. You cannot help people if you are for profit. Being in a professional sales field can show me, first of all, it is your job to be able to help people. If you want to do it right, you really have to get an understanding of what is currently going on in an industry and how your solution can help them. So, very much developing that skill of understanding, that listening skill, was something that I had developed in the past. Being in this industry for so long and for the past eight years has really helped me develop that skill even further down the line. Also, just keep up with the trends of what is going on in your field.  I mean, what are the next tech trends? What is the next way? What are the next challenges that companies will be facing? These are the things that I have developed even furthermore.

    Joseph: Well, the last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up, Claudia, are just some of the key takeaways that you’ve had from your career change journey. I know that one of the things you’re passionate about is the idea that women and underrepresented minorities should advocate for themselves and to speak about their accomplishments in a way that raises their profiles within their current organization and beyond. You had shared a few takeaways from your journey with me before we started speaking. I was hoping we could go through them one at a time. You shared three with me. First, you mentioned that courage is especially important for women. Tell me more about what you mean by that.

    Claudia: [32:36] I believe courage is so important because, especially when you are from an underrepresented group, I mean women, minority, whatever it is. At times, speaking up for yourself and speaking about accomplishments is very difficult. In the absence of confidence, what do you have? There’s fear and there is a limiting belief. So, how do you overcome that? It is by finding courage and just making the jump. That’s why courage is so important.

    Because at times, you just don’t have the elements of confidence. For me, that was it. I didn’t have the elements of confidence that I could succeed in an industry, succeed in a role, succeed in a country, that I knew nothing about. So, the only thing that I was left with was my courage to just take a leap of faith, jump, and see what is going to happen. That is why I encourage everyone just find it within you to jump.

    Joseph: What are a couple of ways that you feel people can advocate for themselves? You had mentioned to me before we start recording that you got to advocate for your accomplishments, and you’ve got to successfully position yourself so that you can be considered for promotion, raises, and opportunities.

    Claudia: [33:52] Absolutely. I think one of the most important things is to write down every single week — and I’m going to make it very actionable because this is one thing I do. It’s that every single week, block your calendar for 20 minutes and write down 10 things about why you are great, of the things that you do very well. Whether it’s a presentation that you failed; whether it is a co-worker that you helped out; or whether it is a new business that you brought in. Write those things down. Because the misconception is that people see you. The wake-up call is people don’t see you. Especially, with women, we work and work and work, because we think somebody will see us.

    But, one thing I’ve seen is that, when we work hard in school, we get good grades. When you transmit that same mindset into the workplace, you get frustrated and burnt out because people simply don’t see you. People have their own things on their plate. So, if you don’t advocate for yourself, you’ll be passed by promotions, and salary increases. So many opportunities will just pass you by because you’re not making yourself seen, known, and heard. So, it is your job to really write down those accomplishments, set a one-to-one with your manager, and say, “Here are the three things that I’ve done. Here are the five things that I’ve done that’s helped advance the company. Do you notice, first of all? Can we maybe think about a promotion? Can we talk about a salary increase? Can we talk about my professional growth inside this organization?”

    Joseph: Yeah. It’s a really good tip, Claudia. As you were sharing that story, I was just thinking about — this might not seem like it’s related. Actually, I was on an airplane yesterday and there were these guys who were trying to catch a connecting flight to South Africa. We were landing in London, and our plane was delayed. They were just standing there in line, and a woman behind him actually said, “Why don’t you just ask people if they can let you through?” Because they were just standing there. They did. And then, people let them through. She was saying, “I don’t know why they didn’t ask for that earlier?” I do think it’s important to not assume that people know what you want but to actually verbalize it, articulate it, and be very specific about what you’re looking for.

    Claudia: [36:00] We think that people will say no. Very specifically, HBR released a study on how women negotiate. The sad truth about this is women negotiate four times less than men, and women start also with a much lesser salary than men. So, what did accumulate to is that not just are you leaving money on the table, but you’re also leaving money out of your pension, out of any dream that you can aspire to. But, simply by asking, just having the courage to ask, you can really up your salary in a very easy way. Without having to learn the ins and outs of negotiation skills, but just simply asking.

    Joseph: The third and final point here is that you mentioned the currency for pivoting careers is your professional network. What would you like people to know about the importance of their professional relationships?

    Claudia: [37:01] This is something I learned very late in my career because one that that, retrospectively, I believe would have made my transition within political science way easier would have been if I had an established network. I did not have any establishment program. Within my family or my close immediates, there was no one that was in the industry I was in, the working industry that I wanted. In IT, in the first place, also no. One thing that helped me a lot was building up a professional network. That network became really my currency with regard to opportunities; job opportunities, and professional development. So, I encourage each and everyone, especially women, to build up that network as soon as possible, if you haven’t done so. If you’re looking especially to pivot into careers, or transition into different careers, such as how we doing now.

    The easiest way is to reach out to someone in a career that you’re interested in, that is completely different from the one that you are in currently and to have a conversation. Ask, “Okay. What is your day-to-day? How do you become successful in this role? What does it take? You might find that it’s not as far-fetched as you think. That career transition can become much easier and much smoother than if you’re just all by yourself and trying to figure things out all by yourself.

    Joseph: I was hoping to wrap up by asking you a couple of final questions about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. Also, I want to ask you about your book. What’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself now that you have successfully broken into the tech industry as someone who, at least on the surface, initially, maybe didn’t seem like you had any business being in that industry?

    Claudia: [38:43] I learned about myself that I have an innate value, and that value is growth. I’ll find to grow in no matter what industry. To me, in the beginning, it was just sheer frustration. Why can’t I make it? Why can’t I become successful? It’s because I had the value of growth. So, today, if I approach companies, this is the first thing that I bring onto the table. What are the possibilities in which I can grow? Because I’ll find them. If I don’t find them inside, I’ll find them outside. That’s I think the biggest lesson.

    The second one is very much that if I have courage and I stop limiting my beliefs, I can achieve what I want to achieve. I can also reach out to ask other people for help, and that is not a bad thing to do. I don’t have to figure it all out by myself.

    Joseph: You also wrote a book called, My Hair, My Choice. What’s that book about?

    Claudia: [39:36] The book, My Hair, My Choice, is a book I wrote for my daughter when she was around 7 years old. She had an encounter at school that wasn’t so pleasant about her hair, about the afro hair that she has. I had that experience too when I was much younger. I wanted to give my daughter an empowering narrative. Because I understand that there will be times when she has to become an ally for herself where nobody will stand up such as when she added incidents in school, and I wanted to give her something that will remind her of her beauty and her strength.

    So, the book, My Hair, My Choice, is that narrative that she can carry her hair any way she wants, and this is her power, her superpower.  Being different is completely normal and being different is your choice. That’s why the book, “My Hair, My Choice,” was written.

    Joseph: I’m definitely going to check that out. We will include a link to that book in the show notes. Where can people go, Claudia, to learn more about you, and also how they can advocate for themselves in the workplace?

    Claudia: [40:39] The easiest way that I hang around lot on LinkedIn. You can connect with me at “Claudia Bruce Quartey,” LinkedIn. You connect with me also on my website. I’d be happy to chat with you. Yeah, you mentioned that, in order to help you advocate for yourself, I developed a guide, a very short sweet guide that you can download in which you can write down what other things that make you remarkable, what are the things that make you great, and start advocating for yourself.

    Joseph: We’ll include a link to that resource also in the show notes. I just really wanted to thank you so much for your generosity in giving us some of your time today and telling us more about your life as a key account manager, how you broke into that industry, and also just the importance of advocating for yourself in the workplace. Especially, if you’re someone who is coming from an underrepresented background. Best of luck to you, Claudia, with all of your work there at Red Hat. I hope it continues to go well for you.

    Claudia: [41:40] Thank you so much, Joseph, for having me.

    27 July 2023, 12:00 am
  • 52 minutes 46 seconds
    Leaving On a High Note with Aisling Drennan- CR97

    When you’re not happy with your job, deciding to make a career change may seem more straightforward. However, when things are going well, do you keep riding the wave or make the leap and try something new?

    In episode 97 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Aisling Drennan, a Riverdance Irish dancer turned artist shares her thoughts on shifting from an international stage to an art studio. We’ll discuss the deeply personal choice of when to walk away from an established career, the inevitable challenges of starting anything new, and the importance of championing your own work. I also share some thoughts on when you can tell the time has come to move on during the Mental Fuel® segment.

    Key Career Change Insights

    1. You can’t know everything from the start. You have to figure it out along the way. It’s about giving yourself time and accepting the inevitable mistakes along the way
    2. You can’t be the champion of everything, but you have to be your own champion of your own work and ambition.
    3. If making a career change was easy, everyone would be doing it. You have to constantly ask yourself, is this what I want to do? If yes, you must find a way to make this work.
    4. Deciding exactly when to leave your job behind is a very personal choice. On the one hand, you could leave on a high note, knowing you may still have left to give and gain. On the other, you could leave after you feel like you’ve given everything you can, although it can result in dissatisfaction, burnout, and even resentment.
    5. Expect the early days to be tough. Starting is often the hardest phase when you’re embarking on a new career path. However, if you know you’re doing what you want to do, with enough hard work and tenacity, you’ll turn a corner.

    Episode Chapters

    Listener Challenge

    During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I discussed how to decide whether the time has come to pursue another path in your career.

    Consider whether you have: A) anything else to gain, B) more you could give, C) more you actually want to give.

    The choice is ultimately yours. I just encourage you to not overextend yourself too much and to walk away once you feel that deep down, the time is right to move on.

    About Aisling Drennan, Abstract Expressionist Painter

    Aisling Drennan, Career Relaunch® podcast episode 97

    Aisling Drennan used to be a former professional Irish dancer with Riverdance, performing internationally for almost a decade with her sketchbook and paint box in her suitcase. Originally from County Clare, Ireland, she dedicated the earlier parts of her life touring around the world, and dancing professionally.

    However, she eventually began a gradual, steady career transition into the world of art. She’s now a full-time, abstract expressionist painter, balancing her artistic endeavors with motherhood after the birth of her son in early 2022. Based in London, she now creates her artwork at Delta House Studios, where you can check out her paintings along with work from several other artists.

    Most recently Aisling Drennan’s work was selected for The Royal Cambrian Academy of Art’s annual exhibition (2023) & Gordan Ramsay’s new restaurant in the Savoy Hotel, London (2021). Drennan was an artist in residence at Cill Rialaig Artists Centre (2019), and her work has been shortlisted for the John Moore’s painting prize (2018). She was Fujitsu’s featured artist for a global media campaign (2017) and has received the Freyer Award for excellence in contemporary painting from the Royal Dublin Society of Arts (2011). Drennan has been noted by State magazine as “one to watch”

    Aisling will be exhibiting her art at The Other Art Fair in London, June 29 – July 2. To meet her and check out her paintings, stop by to see her there at Stand 92.

    Learn more about Aisling, watch her painting in action, and follow her on Instagram.

    https://youtu.be/RgxqltqRnuU

    Also, if you’ve never seen Riverdance which recently celebrated its 25th anniversary of touring, this clip gives you a little taste of the show!

    https://youtu.be/wybiE6Xv_z8

    Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
     Leave Joseph a Voicemail
    You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

    Thanks to Audible for Supporting Career Relaunch

    Audible Logo SquareThanks to Audible for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 600,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch® listeners can download a free audiobook download and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch.

    Interview Segment Music Credits

    Episode Interview Transcript

    Joseph: Good morning, Aisling. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It’s great to have you on the show. I’m really excited to talk with you about your time both as a dancer and also now as an artist.

    Aisling: [03:17] Good morning, Joseph. I am very pleased to be here chatting with you. It’s always such a pleasure when people have an interest in what I do, so thank you.

    Joseph: Well, let’s jump into it. Let’s talk, first of all, about what you have been focused on right now in your career and your life. What has been keeping you busy both personally and also professionally?

    Aisling: [03:37] I’ve just finished a new series of paintings. They were just shown last weekend because I’ve got a studio at Delta House Studios in Cyprus, London. We do open studio events twice a year. One in June, one in October, where everybody can come along, meet the maker, see where the work is made. So, it’s finishing new work for that. It’s been pretty busy. And then, I have a couple of things coming up, career-wise. I’m doing the other art fair at the end of the month. I’ve got a couple of shows lined up for the winter, and a few fun things in between.

    And then, personally, things are good. I have a one-year-old. It’s keeping me very busy. I suppose I’ve had a big life change of being pregnant and given birth, having a baby, coming back to work, and finding all that balance. It’s been a real roller coaster but in the best way and sort of finding my feet again. I guess you lose your identity a bit, and then you come back into it. I feel like I’ve just come back to finding my identity, getting back into painting, back into the studio, and getting everything moving again.

    Joseph: Two questions on a couple of things you just mentioned there. First of all, you mentioned you’re a new mother. What have you found to be the biggest challenge around balancing parenting with your work as an artist?

    Aisling: [04:56] I have my own business. So, if I’m not working on it, nobody else is doing it. I think it was very important to me to get back into the studio and keep things running while I was managing a newborn and everything that comes along with that so much. I think I was probably a wee bit optimistic because I came back to work when my son, Caolàn, was four months old. I thought, “It’d be fine! I’ll do it. It’s grand.” It didn’t really work out like that.

    I guess that’s one of the things I’ve learned that your time is no longer just your time. Your time has to be shared and prioritize with him. As we, my husband and I, have moved along, because he has his own business as well, we’ve managed to juggle. Actually, that’s a real good thing about each of us having our own business. We’re not set to somebody else’s time. It’s purely our time so we can manage things around the baby, which is quite good.

    That, and I think the identity thing, which I wasn’t prepared for because you step into a whole new pair of shoes being a mother and you get lost in that because you’re learning so much. And then, you come back into your work, which I love what I do. I’ve really worked hard to get to where I am. And then, you have to find it all again. You have to find yourself. It’s sort of an interesting new path. Like, I’m the same person but I’m different. I’m still finding my way around that.

    Joseph: It is a challenge flipping back and forth between your identity as a mother, and also your identity as a professional. And, being able to go back and forth multiple times within the same day can be quite jarring.

    Aisling: [06:37] Quite jarring. I think it’s all because this is like my studio, and my painting, my art practice is my — I don’t want to say my “other child,” that sounds the wrong thing. But, it’s not like I’m going to work for somebody else. This is very much mine. It’s all that more important to me. It keeps moving, and progressing, and developing. I think in the long term, that’s going to be such a good lesson for Caolàn as he grows up and he sees what me and his dad do. Because my husband’s an architect, so he has his own practice as well in his own studio. I think it’ll all be good but we’re just finding our way, which is exciting as well. I mean, look, this is the essence of life, isn’t it? You just figure it all out as you go.

    Joseph: Well, I want to get back into also your professional life here. I know you mentioned you’re an artist. What kind of artist are you, and what do you enjoy doing as an artist?

    Aisling: [07:26] I am an abstract expressionist painter. My work would be rooted in the materiality of paint. That would mean just literally getting stuck into the wonderful nuances of paint, and what you can do with it, and how you can play with it, and manipulate it. I won an Irish residency in 2019 that completely changed the direction of my work. All my work is now based on rock landscapes, extracting from those spaces. These are landscapes back in Ireland. Obviously, I’m from Ireland. You can tell from my accent. I go and sit on-site and make studies and bring them back into my studio here in London, and literally, abstract from them.

    It’s a very processed way of working. Because I’ve just finished this new series of work, I’m still finding my feet with discussing it, which is a weird thing. Because you think of it all visually in your head, and then you have to vocalize that when you’re talking about it, so it’s an ongoing thing.

    Joseph: I think art is probably one of the hardest things to describe in words to others. Just by definition, it is difficult to put into words.

    Aisling: [08:34] Yeah. Well, that’s why like what I mentioned at the top of the conversation, something like open studios is great. Because you get people coming into your studio, and you see their reaction straight off, or they ask you questions that you may not have considered yourself. It’s a wonderful way to interact with the work and with people and build those relationships. If you’re selling through a gallery, you don’t get that same conversation or connection, let’s say. It was wonderful with this new series of work to have people come in and sort of look at it differently from how I’m looking at it.

    Joseph: Well, I do want to come back to the commercial dynamics of being an artist. You mentioned gallery versus studio versus art show. I do want to get back into that toward the end of the conversation. Right now, what I’d be very interested in doing is going back in time. Because I know you haven’t always been an abstract expressionist painter. You were once a professional Irish dancer. Can you tell us a little bit about your life as a dancer? I suppose the best place to start here is to talk about where you grew up, and what are some of the things you remember about your childhood growing up in Ireland.

    Aisling: [09:43] Oh, gosh! I had an amazing childhood in Ireland. I grew up in rural West Coast Ireland. County Clare, North County Clare. Right on the Atlantic Ocean. Just very free, very open, very fresh childhood. Typically, I don’t know if it’s the same now, but growing up in the ’80s Ireland, everyone who went to school there would be an Irish dancing teacher that would come into the school and teach the basics. It was sort of like your physical education in a sense. Both of my parents were dancers. So, they brought my sisters and I along to Irish dancing classes. That’s where it began really.

    Joseph: Were they professional dancers?

    Aisling: [10:21] No. It’s the type of thing particularly I think, like where I’m from in Ireland. My parents are both from the west of Ireland as well. Culturally, it will be very normal that like somebody would dance, or somebody would sing, or play an instrument, or something like that. My parents had a hotel and a bar, so there was always music and dancing and something performative going on. You were just always expected to get up and do whatever you were able to do. My parents were both dancers, so there was always dancing in the bar. I just grew up with it very naturally, which is totally normal for that part of Ireland.

    Then, I started going to Irish dancing classes and started competing. At the time, there was absolutely no sense of being professional. A professional Irish dancer, what is that? No! And then, of course, in 1994, Riverdance arrived on the scene at the Eurovision Song Contest. It just changed the landscape, massively. I was 12 I think when Riverdance was on the Eurovision. I remember watching it with my family because it was such a big thing in Ireland, the Eurovision. “I want to do that. What is it? I want to do it. I want to know more.” Riverdance obviously went international, and they started to audition people. I auditioned when I was 16, and I got in. I left school for a year to go on tour.

    Joseph: For those not familiar with Riverdance, it’s this big theatrical show that features traditional Irish music and dance. It’s sort of like the quintessential Irish dance show. As I understand it and as you alluded to, it was originally this interval act at Eurovision. And then, it turned into this huge stage show production in the early ’90s. And now, it’s been seen by over something like 25 million people and is considered to be one of the most successful dance productions in the world. So, kind of a phenomenon. Could you just explain the audition process to get in there?

    Aisling: [12:20] Thinking about the phenomenon of it, for just anyone who’s not aware of it, I think I performed in over 400 cities in 50 countries over all the continents. And that was over so many years. Just literally touring and touring and touring. So, it was big, big, big.

    The audition process was, it’s something that I still think about now because I learned so much on that day. It was in Dublin. I got the train up with my mum from Limerick up to Dublin. The train broke down on the way up. Of course, I was really stressing because we were going to be late for the audition. My mom rang the dance director and said, “We’re so sorry. The train is broken down.” She said, “Don’t worry. There are other people on the same train. They’re coming, too.”

    There was me, and I think three or four other girls. We were all late going into the audition because of the train. We walked into this massive dance studio, lined with mirrors, and everyone is dressed in black with their number after auditioning, and we were the last ones to come in. We have to audition in front of hundreds of other girls and boys. I just remember thinking, “Oh, gosh. This is so hard!” I think two of the girls that I auditioned with were champions. One was a champion in the year above me, going back to the competitive side. And, one was the champion of my age group, if I remember correctly. They didn’t both get in. I got in.

    It was just something that I thought about sort of on reflection that like not everybody can always be the champion. You don’t always win everything. You just have to be your own champion, if that makes sense. It was something that I learned from that process. Because I remember feeling very intimidated going in with champion dancers. I had done quite well competitively, but I hadn’t won major titles or anything like that. I was late going into the audition. It was just like a complete, “Oh, gosh! This is the worst day of my life.” At 16, when everything is so dramatic.

    Joseph: Of all days, yeah.

    Aisling: [14:17] Yeah. So, we got in. What happened at the time was, you started doing workshops, which were, oh, my God, unbelievably hard. I remember coming out of them and just not being able to walk. My feet were full of blisters and my legs were killing me. It was just a whole different level of training from what I had had competitively like in my dancing school.

    And then, what they do is at the time is different now. But, at the time, they would send you out on corporate gigs. I was 16 in school, and I was being flown here and there and everywhere to go and perform at all these very fancy events. And then, sitting back down on a Monday morning, “Well, Aisling, how was your weekend?” “Grand.” I was over dancing at that Golden Globe Awards, and they’re used to just meeting all these people. It was mad, but it was great fun.

    Joseph: How did that work with school? Because you’re 16. I guess for a normal child who’s not performing, you’d be going to classes every day and do whatever you want on the weekend. How did that work with balancing school and being on tour with this huge company?

    Aisling: [15:22] I didn’t know. I grew up in a very rural, very small part of Ireland. It’s not like there were a whole lot of other distractions. Do you know what I mean? I used to go to school, and then I would come home and have a snack. I would practice my dancing, and then I would do my homework. That was kind of my day-to-day. And then, I will be competing on the weekends. So now, it was just like, “Oh, I might be doing a gig. Like flying off somewhere to do a gig.” It was just, I don’t know, it just rolled into it. And, I was the youngest of three.

    Joseph: You have two older sisters, right?

    Aisling: [15:51] Yeah. I have two older sisters. And, one of my sisters ended up in “World of Dance,” which is like another art practice.

    Joseph: Oh, another big one, yeah.

    Aisling: [15:59] For my parents, we were just always busy dancing. It was kind of just, you just do it, don’t you?

    Joseph: Were you thinking that this is what you were going to do after you finished secondary school? Or, what was running through your head during the early years? We’ll get to the later years in a moment. But, just the early years as a child dancing, what were you thinking? How did you think this was going to go? How did you want it to go for you? Or, did you even think about that?

    Aisling: [16:25] I’ve always been focused and just knew from a very early age what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to get into Riverdance, and then I wanted to go to art school, and that was it. I didn’t want to do anything else. Luckily, it’s worked out that way. Because I know a lot of people, it can take time to find what they want to do and find their place. I was just very focused and just started to put the points in place that I needed to make that happen.

    Joseph: Was there a reason why you wanted to be dancing as part of the show instead of just going straight to art school if that was what you had wanted to do long term?

    Aisling: [17:03] I knew there was a window for being a professional dancer. I knew I could go to art school at any time. Like on finishing school, I got my place at art school. I knew, “Okay I’ll just defer that for a couple of years, and I’ll go on tour.” I didn’t know how long I wanted to tour or anything. But, my God, it was just an unbelievable experience. In hindsight, it has fared so much into my art practice. Because I was traveling the world. I was getting paid for it. I was so young. I was on tour with great friends, and all the rest of it.

    I always had my sketchbook in my suitcase and my boxer paints. I would always go and see the museums, or the galleries, or check out shows because I wanted to educate myself. And because I was in these places, for example, in Mexico City, I went to Frida Kahlo’s house, La Casa Azul. And then, to fast forward a couple of years when I was studying arts, and that coming up in the lecture, and I was like, “Oh, God! I was there.” I saw it. I knew it. I was very privileged to have all these experiences that have fed into my art career and that educated me. It was the starting point of my education as an artist.

    Joseph: What was a typical month like for you as a dancer on this global tour that you were on?

    Aisling: [18:25] It depends on what company you’re in. Because Riverdance had like — was it two or three full-time companies? There was one company that would tour America, sort of months and end. And then, there was another company that would do Europe. And then, there would be a company doing like Australia and Asia. It depends on which company you were put into.

    And then, you might have like a month-long residency somewhere, or you might be moving every two weeks. Again, depending on which company you were in. Typically, it would be week by week. Before you would go out on tour, you would do all your rehearsals in Dublin, and then you would be flown out to where you go, and then there would be more rehearsals set up before the opening city, the opening night. And then, everything just goes to plan because you know everyone knows what they’re doing.

    Joseph: What do you remember about life as a professional dancer? Let’s talk about both the highs and the lows.

    Aisling: [19:16] The highs, I think, definitely, I’ll never forget the electricity of doing the final choreography to the — well, I think it was quite iconic, the music of Riverdance. The lights going up, and the audience standing up, and everyone cheering, and just feeling that electricity. It was just amazing. I used to think, “My God! I’m this girl from a very small part of Ireland, and look at me on Broadway,” or “Look at me! I’m in Tokyo,” wherever it was. Making all these people stand up, and feel happy and amazing, and bring them along this wonderful journey that was amazing. I thought that it still stays with me.

    Lows, I don’t know. I guess, sometimes, it was hard because you were living out of a suitcase for months and months on end. You might miss family events, or the environment sometimes was a little bit tricky. Because you know you were all together all the time. You were working, eating, and socializing. And sometimes, it was a lot. But, I think it was a really good life lesson in managing friendships and learning how to deal with people. Because we were all quite young as well and finding our fate. But, overall, it was an absolute highlight absolutely.

    Joseph: One of the things, Aisling, I have always wondered about, I suppose as somebody in the audience watching any show is these are you were up there every day every night after night, day after day, I’m assuming performing the same exact choreography pretty much for every show. Did that ever get repetitive? Or, this does not mean to be a leading question. I’ve always just genuinely wondered if it feels repetitive or not. Just because you’re just in the zone when you’re up there.

    Aisling: [21:07] Yeah. Because I’ve often wondered about Britney Spears. Does she ever get sick of singing “Hit Me, Baby, One More Time”?

    Joseph: Exactly. Can you really bring the same energy on day one and day 200?

    Aisling: [21:17] I don’t know. Oh, I just loved it. I really loved it. I mean, if I was still doing it now, I think I’d feel fairly lethargic about doing the same choreography over and over. The music was always amazing. It was with my mates. I was in my 20s. For some people, it may become a little bit repetitive, but no. I love it. I still love it. I hope I will always dance. I don’t dance so much anymore, obviously. I’m a bit past it. The last time I probably danced was at our wedding, and that was amazing. Because I had all my friends from Riverdance there, and we all got up and did Riverdance.

    Joseph: Oh, wow!

    Aisling: [21:56] Yeah. I was the entertainment at my own wedding.

    Joseph: It was a good wedding to go to, yeah.

    Aisling: [22:02] Yeah. It was amazing for all the guests, obviously.

    Joseph: I bet.

    Aisling: [22:05] I loved that I had those friends. We literally grew up on the road together, and we’re still really good friends. We’re all having kids now, and we’re living in different parts of the world but, we’re still connected. I think that’s so special. I’ll have those relationships for the rest of my life. I have them only because of Riverdance. I owe so much to Riverdance. Really, I owe so much to my parents because they took me to Irish dancing classes, and took me to competitions, which then led me to audition for Riverdance. And then, Riverdance gave me this whole opportunity, which has fed into my art career now. Everything has this linked-up effect, the one thing is fed into the other. All creatively as well, which is lovely.

    Joseph: It sounds like this was an amazing experience. Probably, one that was very coveted, and sought after. Many kids would probably really enjoy it in many ways. I guess if you’re going to be a dancer, then this is one of the shows to be in. At what point did you decide that you needed to or wanted to start exploring something else and maybe revisiting the idea of pursuing art?

    Aisling: [23:21] I wanted to go to art school and study it. My mom was an artist, so I had grown up around that context. I do clearly remember, I was on an American tour, we had a residency in Boston for a month. And then, every morning in the hotel, they would drop the newspapers at my door. I used to take the paper and I bring it down to the dressing room before the show, sitting in the theatre, doing my hair and makeup. I’d be flicking through the paper, what’s going on in the world?

    In their art section, there was a caption saying, “Leave the stage before the stage leaves you.” It just resounded with me straight away. It was an interview with a Prima Ballerina who was retiring. I just don’t know. Something just clicked. I loved Riverdance, and I didn’t want to lose that feeling and that respect for it. So, I wanted to leave the stage before the stage left me. I wanted to leave the stage on a high with all the love I have for it, rather than just staying there for like the lifestyle, or the money, or just because my friends were there. I wanted to leave there on a good positive note.

    Because I had seen people who had stayed in the show too long, and they weren’t very happy, and they were a bit negative, and things like that. I just didn’t want that for me. So, that was the point. I knew that that would be my last tour, and that tour was eight months long. I was like, “Right, I can do this.” And then, “All right. I’m going to go back to the art school, and just say I’m going to come next September.” That was it.

    Joseph: This is such a hard decision, right? On the one hand — I guess you could argue either way. You’re at your best and you’re at your high as a dancer or in any profession. Do you just keep going or do you leave while you’re ahead? I think that’s a real big challenge for a lot of people.

    Aisling: [25:08] It is.

    Joseph: Deciding when to leave.

    Aisling: [25:09] Deciding when to leave. But, sometimes, things just fall into your lap. And sometimes, something will hit you and you just have to go with your gut. Something I’ve learned more and more, the older I get, like to trust your gut and instinct on things like this. I could have stayed there just touring and touring and touring. But then, I wouldn’t have been happy and I would have sort of got the fear of it about what I was going to do next and all that.

    I feel quite lucky that I had the balls, essentially, to just go. I could have stayed. I was very happy there. They were happy with me. Contracts were coming in. It was all good. But, like made the decision, and just stuck with it, and went for it.

    Joseph: As I understand it, you went back and did an undergraduate in Fine Arts. And then, you also eventually did a master’s degree in Fine Art, but you were still touring at the time. Is that right? Again, I guess going back to my original question, how did that work out?

    Aisling: [26:03] I know. I had a really good relationship with Riverdance. When I said I was going to go to art school, they said, “Great!” And then, basically, they offered me work for every summer holiday, or Christmas holiday, or sporadic weeks here and there, where I will go back on tour, which was amazing for me because I was a student.

    I was going back on tour, making money, coming back into uni, and doing what I needed to do. It just kept me going, basically. And, when I finished my undergrad, I took a year off between doing my master’s degree. I went back on tour for a year to make money, to do my master’s degree. So, thanks to Riverdance, I have no student debt, which is really great.

    Joseph: It’s another benefit. I remember we were talking last time, while you’re a student, you did take up a few side jobs. If I remember it correctly. Waitressing, dog walking.

    Aisling: [26:58] Everything. Initially, when I left Riverdance and I started my undergrad in Galway on the west coast of Ireland as well, in Riverdance, we had this amazing lifestyle. There would be opening parties, and closing parties, and champagne, and caviar, and all the rest of it. To being a student, where it was like beans on toast and cracked wine on a Wednesday night, or something like that. It was a massive change. It was really good fun and I was up for it and all the rest of it.

    And then, when I came to London to do my master’s degree, I really had to hustle. Because London is very expensive. I was a student. I was on my own. I didn’t really know anyone here. I was very determined though. I had got my place at Central St. Martins, which I was so happy about because it’s an art school that I had admired. I was thinking about this recently that there was a point my master’s degree was two years. In the second year of my master’s degree, I was nannying three children. I would get up at like 5 a.m., go to their house, get them off for school, get them fed, bring them to school.

    Then, I would go down to my studio at Central St Martins for a couple of hours do my painting work. Then, I would go to the library, and do my thesis work. Then, I would come back, pick the kids up from school until like do their dinners, everything. Leave them at 7 p.m. Then, I would go to my waitressing job, and waitress to like 11, 12 o’clock. And then, I had to walk a dog because I was living in a house with a very good rent. But, the deal was I had to mind the dog. I was always walking — the morning walk and evening walk, and all the rest of it like so.

    And now, I look back and I think, “Jesus Christ! How did I do that?” It was so much. But, I think it was just sheer tenacity. I was so determined to keep this going and to make it happen. At the time, in the first house with the dog that I lived with, there was also — it sounds like a joke. There was me, the artist, there was an actress, and a comedian. We used to all rotate around this dog because the man who owned the house was a BBC Rugby commentator. So, he was always going off on rugby tours, and we would mind the dog, and it was just really funny.

    It was really good for me to be living with other creators. Because we were all struggling to find our way. I would miss out on an exhibition, and they would miss out on an audition, and we’d sit down and have a glass of wine, and have a moment about it with the dog and all that kind of thing. You hustle and you find your way to start off because it is hard. You can’t go in and start it off, especially in London.

    Joseph: I also want to talk about your time as an abstract painter. Let’s talk about your journey. Because you finish up school, you decide you want to be an artist, what were the early days like for you? And, where were you doing your art? How did the logistics of all this work out as you’re starting off as an artist? What do you do?

    Aisling: [29:55] I graduated in Central St. Martins in 2014. I came bouncing a lot of arts school and was, “Yay! This is great. I’ve got my master’s degree.” And then, went, “Oh, God. How am I going to make this work? Should I stay in London? Do I need to go back to Ireland? Where do I want to be?” I think in art school, it’s this amazing environment, and everyone’s on the same wavelength, and it’s just full of creativity. There’s so much going on between fine arts, and fashion, and creative writing because there are all these different departments and this buzz of creativity.

    And then, you come out and you go, “Great. Where do I start?” Let’s just say there isn’t a whole lot of focus on professional practice in that sense. I took some time just to gather myself a bit. I was still living in the house with the dog, so that was great. I was still nannying, so I was able to keep myself tipping over. And then, I thought, “I’m going to stay in London. I’m going to give it a go and see what happens.” I started looking for an art studio, which was just impossible. I just wasn’t able to pay for rent on my living and pay for rent on the studio.

    But then, one of the girls I had studied with was a waitress as well. Her boss had an old kebab shop that was no longer in use. So, he said we could have it for free. It was on Holloway Road, if we wanted it. We said, “Yeah. Let’s go for it.” And, my God! It was horrendous. It was freezing. It stank up like oil and chicken and it was dusty. But, it was a starting point. And then, this is the way it happens. Like, that was my first studio in London. It was free, starting points. And now, I got the best studio I’ve ever had and I love my studio now.

    Joseph: How long were you at the kebab shop?

    Aisling: [31:44] Maybe almost a year. I remember it had like a big glass front. People used to be walking up and down every morning, going to work. They started to get to know me. Because they’d see me in there at the wall, painting. They started waving at me. And, it would be freezing and I’d have all the layers of clothes on me and everything. But, I look back at it now and I think, “It was a starting point. I stuck it out. It was tough.” But, look now where I am. I got this amazing studio. I’ll probably stay here for quite a while. Because it’s very hard to get a studio in London. It’s a funny story now.

    Joseph: Let’s just think, okay, around month 11 of being in the kebab shop, I think one of the things that people struggle with when they’re embarking on a new journey is the starting few months or years can be really tough, and not exactly how you imagine things to be. How did you reconcile that? Was it running through your head? Did it bother you at all? Or, were you just feeling like, “Hey, this is just part of the journey”?

    Aisling: [32:42] I definitely had my moments. At that point as well, I was in my early 30s. I was just thinking, “This is tough. This is really tough.” But, at the same time, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. So, you have to start to find that balance and you have to constantly come back to, “Is this what I want to do? Yes. This is definitely what I want to do. Right. How am I going to make this work? How can I make this a bit better?”

    So then, I started like I did a load of service jobs so I could make more money. Then, I moved into a different studio. Then, I started to have some galleries come and visit the studio. My work started getting picked up for different shows, and competitions, and things like that. And then, you start to understand as well, you have to think about the long game. This is not just going to happen straight away. You really have to apply yourself and understand that this is a lifetime career. Like, I will still be painting in my 90s, whatever age I end up being. And, there are no quick fixes around it. As well, you need that time because you have to develop your work. Because the work I was making then is completely different to the work I’m making now. The ethos is the same, but the work is very different. Because I’ve matured, the work has matured.

    Joseph: What has been the most difficult or challenging part of your journey as an artist?

    Aisling: [34:05] I think fallibility, actually. Understanding that I will make mistakes and I will get it wrong and embracing that. Like, embracing them. When I was younger, I had a bit of a panic that was like, “I have to get this right,” and “I’m supposed to know everything.” But, you don’t know everything. You have to figure it out and you have to screw it up because that’s how you learn. Once I accepted that and understood that this was about making mistakes, getting it wrong, and it’s about time, then I was able to progress.

    Again, it goes back to that when I was auditioning for Riverdance, you have to be your own champion. You can’t be the champion of everything, but you have to be your own champion for you so you can move forward. Does that make sense?

    Joseph: That does make a lot of sense, yeah. Especially, as an artist, you’re going to get all sorts of subjective critique coming your way, and you’re not going to be able to please everybody as an artist. So, I guess you have to be that much more self-assured to believe in your work.

    Aisling: [35:07] Yeah. You really have to. And, you have to understand that like — even I, as a mother, my son is in daycare this morning. So, you have this new added expense. But, you have to spend money to make money. I’m investing in my time by putting him into daycare, which means I can progress that I will do better. It’s always changing as well. I think that’s another thing that I’ve learned as well, that I have to be really flexible. Particularly, now, as a mother.

    In terms of the work and my paintings’ development, I had a lecture in art school who used to always say to me, “Aisling, you need to decide where you’re going to place yourself as an artist.” I could never understand that. I could never get my head around it. But, I understand it now. Because I’m so much more confident in what I’m doing and the work. I know where to place myself, and I know which box let’s say, within the art world, I want to put myself into. But, it’s taken me years to sort of unravel that in my head.

    Joseph: Can we also talk about the commercial side of being an artist for a moment? Because you did mention there’s a bit of a trade-off here. Obviously, you got to invest in the nursery, and you’ve got your bills to pay. There I think there is probably, at least an external perception out there that it’s pretty hard to make it successfully in the art world. In fact, there’s this term “starving artist.” Can you explain in your own words, what has it taken for you to make it as an artist?

    Aisling: [36:36] When I was in arts school, so granted we’re going back a good 10 years now, there was always the hierarchy of the gallery. Whereas now, you can have so much more self-autonomy as an artist. You can have so much more control. I’m not saying that there isn’t room for everybody, of course, there is. But, with the rise in the online art markers, something like COVID as well, has reshaped how people buy and sell art. I think now, you can really just sell for you.

    For example, the open studios. When people come and meet me, they see the work in the studio. I sell through my website. I sell through Instagram. And then, I do like art shows. And, I do show with galleries, but I’m not exclusive with a gallery. Because for now — I’m not saying I never will. But for now, I’m quite happy to build it on my own. I find that the more confident I become in my work, the more confident I become in my website development, or whatever it is. Because there are all these other little hats.

    In art school, they don’t teach you professional things. It’s all this stuff that you have to learn when you come out: contracts, agreements, and tax, and all the grown-up stuff that you have to deal with. You go first, again, it’s the tenacity. I want to do this. I want to make it work. I want to be able to pay for this studio. I want to be able to pay my bills. How am I going to do that? Well, I have to get up and talk about my work and tell everyone how great it is. Because I do think it is great and I’m in this for the long game. I want to build relationships with collectors, which I am doing, which is lovely. Because they come back, and they buy again and again. They say, “Oh, Aisling, you’ve changed your palette,” or “You’re moving into a different area.” It’s wonderful to build that.

    I think we’re living in an age where people want that experience as well of if someone buys my work, they love to be able to say, “Oh, gosh. This girl is from Ireland and she’s been with Riverdance, and now she’s an artist.” It’s this whole story, and Riverdance has influenced her work, and I’m really happy to share that with people.

    Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up with an art fair that you’re going to be exhibiting at very soon here, is just some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. What have you learned about yourself as you have made this pivot from being a professional dancer to now a professional artist?

    Aisling: [38:56] I suppose I will go back again to the idea of tenacity. I didn’t realize, I always knew I had really good discipline, an application from being a dancer, that is just drawn into you. I’ve been able to carry that forward into my art career, which has been brilliant. I think learning that you can cross-pollinate from one creative area into another is a really wonderful thing. Learning to trust myself more, definitely.

    I said this earlier as well, trusting my instinct on things. Again, that’s a confidence thing as you grow. Particularly, within the arts, because it is also subjective and there isn’t one clear path with it. But, knowing that you can just follow your own timeline and that’s the best way to do it.

    I think there was a point where I felt like, “Oh, God. I shouldn’t be doing this because at this age.” And now, I’m kind of like, “Oh, no. Not at all. Do it all whatever way I want to do it.” I never stuck directly to the societal terms around how you should be doing things. I’ve always pretty much trusted my own gut. Even when I was 16 going, “I just want to get into Riverdance, and go to art school.” I’ve always had that attitude of, “Okay. Now, I’m just going to move to London and go to art school. And then, I’m going to make it as an artist. How am I going to do that? I don’t know. But, I’ll figure it out.” Like, an understanding you don’t know at all. You have to just wing it, and then everything happens for a reason and it will fall into place.

    Joseph: Anything in particular surprise you about making a pivot at the point in your life when you did?

    Aisling: [40:27] I think I’ve reframed a lot of thinking in my head about how to approach things. That’s been really good. I’ve been very conscious of surrounding myself with good people. Even in my studio, there are some amazing artists here. They’re also friends and they’re people that I can bounce ideas off. People that will help me grow is really good. That’s why it’s good to have good people around you.

    My husband is, he’s super supportive. He loves what I do. He’ll come in and critique what I’m doing. His visual training is different from mine. Like, I said earlier, he’s an architect. His viewpoint is quite different, but we’ll have really good discussions about it. All these things add up and help me move along, win-win.

    Joseph: If there’s somebody out there who is maybe in a job, or if they’re in a role where they’re not quite feeling like they should keep doing it, or maybe the time has come for them to move on as you were describing before, that they’re thinking about leaving the stage before the stage leaves them, but they haven’t done it yet, what would you say to that person?

    Aisling: [41:34] Oh, it’s so funny, Joseph. I’ve met so many people at art fairs or who come to my studio. They’ll say, “Oh, I’d love to be doing something else. I really don’t like my work, but I love the security of it.” I will just like, “Life is too short. Do it. If it doesn’t work out, it’s okay. The world doesn’t end.”

    I have a friend actually, who’s been saying to me for about five years, “I don’t want to be doing what I’m doing.” I went, “Do it now. Because you don’t want to be saying this to me in another five years. Because then 10 years have gone by.” I would say, “Do it. Life is for living. You want to do what you love.” It’s going to be difficult. Of course, it’s going to be difficult because nothing is easy. If it is easy, it’s boring, right? You want to have a bit of fun with it. Go do it first, that’s what I’d say.

    Joseph: Now, we haven’t had a ton of artists on this show. A lot of the people who have been featured have either come from the corporate world or maybe they’re in more traditional white-collar office jobs. One of the things that you had talked to me about before we started recording was the idea that we need creativity in our lives. What did you mean by that?

    Aisling: [42:41] Okay. A good example of that would be the pandemic. When everything’s shut down, you weren’t able to move, to get out, to do anything. I think so many people relied on music or art that was in their house; TV, movies, all that. All those areas of creativity. Actually, that’s when my sales really went off. Because people were starting to think, “I need something to allow escapism, let’s say, in my home because I’m here so much.” I think creativity is essential to society. I think we need it. I think it’s so important, and people always need to remember that. Because without us, can you imagine life without any color? I mean, color in the broader sense. What’s the point?

    Joseph: I want to wrap up with something that I know you’ve got coming up right around the corner here. Can you tell me a little bit more about The Other Art Fair which is being held at King’s Cross in London from the 29th of June to the 2nd of July?

    Aisling: [43:50] I’m participating in The Other Art Fair. It’s a wonderful fair that’s led by artists. You meet artists on their stand. I will be on Stand Number 92, and you will see my latest body of work. If you want more information on that, you can pop over onto my website, aislingdrennan.com. If you subscribe, I send sporadic emails with any updates like that where I’m doing the art fairs or art galleries, or open studios or anything like that. Make sure you come and tell me that you heard the podcast, and let me know what you think. I’d love to meet you.

    Joseph: All right. Again, that’s Stand 92 at The Other Art Fair in King’s Cross. We’ll be sure to include a link in the show notes with more details about the art fair.

    Thank you so much, Aisling, for taking the time to tell us about your former life as a professional dancer, and now as a professional artist, and the importance of deciding where you want to place yourself and just going for it, if you’re thinking about doing something in your career.

    I hope the art fair this week goes well for you, and I wish you the best of luck with your art, and your business, and of course, balancing all of this with motherhood. Thanks so much for coming onto the show.

    Aisling: [45:02] Thank you for having me.

    28 June 2023, 12:00 am
  • 48 minutes 7 seconds
    Dealing With Insecurities with Rina Takikawa- CR96

    Making any major career pivot involves a lot of bravery, risk, and complication. You’re dealing with not only the practicalities of switching career paths but also the insecurities associated with starting over.

    On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 96, professional ballerina turned Mooch product designer Rina Takikawa describes what triggered her to walk away from a career that was years in the making and the surprising links you can find between two seemingly unrelated careers.

    This sort of decision to let go of a dream you once held onto so tightly turns out to be quite a common one amongst the clients, listeners, and audiences I cross paths with in my line of work. Rina and I talk about why people make these brave leaps, what you can do to manage the pivot, and how much you end up learning about yourself when you’re forced to reconsider what truly makes you happy.

    During today’s Mental Fuel segment, I’ll also share a few of the insecurities I wrestled with when I started over in my own career.

    Key Career Takeaways

    1. Your goals can change over time. When you lose the passion you once had for your career, you owe it to yourself to try and move on.
    2. Making the decision to walk away from a lifelong dream is never easy, but if you can manage the complexities of letting go of the investment, you may just end up finding much more career fulfillment.
    3. If you look hard enough, you can find the surprising, common threads across your seemingly disparate professional endeavors.

    Listener Challenge

    During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to identify, name, and share one of the insecurities you’ve felt recently in your own career so you can identify it when it shows up, accept it, and not allow it to paralyze you.

    Remember, having doubts doesn’t mean you’ve made the wrong choice for your career. It just means you’re dealing with a common dynamic that emerges when you make any unconventional move.

    About Rina Takikawa, Ballerina Turned Product Designer

    Rina Takikawa BalletToday, I’m speaking with Rina Takikawa, a product designer based in Los Angeles. She’s one of the founding members at Mooch, a fintech startup building a Gen Z budgeting app, where she leads design and product experience.

    Rina has been featured in press outlets such as Business Insider and Built In and has spoken at the University of Arizona, UX Copenhagen, Ideate Labs, and CareerFoundry among others. Before transitioning into the tech sector, Rina was a professional ballerina for the Ballet de Catalunya in Spain.

    Follow Rina on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and her newsletter.

    Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
     Leave Joseph a Voicemail
    You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

    Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast

    BrandYourself Square LogoA2 Hosting offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership.

    Interview Segment Music Credits

    Episode Interview Transcript

    Joseph: Hello, Rina. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show.

    Rina: [03:18] Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here today.

    Joseph: Me, too. Alright. Let’s get started here by, first of all, talking about what you’re up to right now. And then, we’re going to go back in time and talk about your former career. I would love to start off by just finding out what you’ve been focused on recently in both your professional and also your personal life.

    Rina: [03:39] I am currently a product designer at a financial technology start-up called “Mooch.” We are a budgeting app powered by Blockchain, and we focus on budgeting for Gen Zs. So, we have a big Gen Z community of over 50,000 people. In my personal life, I enjoy participating in speaking events. I’m also focused on writing a newsletter every week. I do content creation here and there as well. I’m just very passionate about overall personal branding and sharing my story. So, that’s a little bit about me.

    Joseph: Now, as I understand it, Rina, you are a product designer at Mooch. In layman’s terms, explain exactly what does a product designer do?

    Rina: [04:25] A product designer is focused on the product development of an app. On top of actually designing the actual app, I’m also focused on the partner’s experience using the app. So, I mostly focused on how can we design a seamless experience for these people. So, it’s a little bit in factoring everything about a business and a product and experience, in general.

    Joseph: Do you also get into user experience? So that UX versus product design, do they overlap? Are they related?

    Rina: [05:04] That’s basically, the partner experience that I was talking about. It’s essentially user experience. What is the experience like during onboarding, during their sign-up process? What is their experience like using an edit functionality? What does your experience look like creating something on an interface? How does the feature function? Whereas, user interface is more so visual designs. How does the layout work? What do they see on the actual app? Product design is basically a coupling UX and UI together, but also focusing on the actual product division and business goals.

    Joseph: I know that this is a big part of your life right now and definitely what you’re focused on at this moment. You haven’t always been a product designer in the FinTech space, and this show is all about changing careers. I understand you used to be a professional ballerina. Let’s go back in time and talk about your former life as a ballerina. And then, we can talk about how you transitioned into FinTech. I’d love to go all the way back to the beginning. How did you get interested in ballet?

    Rina: [06:11] I started ballet when I was 5 years old. I believe the reason why was my aunt was a former ballerina as well. And so, she persuaded my mom to put me in ballet classes.

    Joseph: This was in New York. Is that right? Is that where you grew up?

    Rina: [06:30] I grew up in New York, but I was born in Singapore. I actually started my baby ballet classes in Singapore.

    Joseph: Do you remember those classes? Like, do you have memories of being in?

    Rina: [06:41] I do!

    Joseph: What was that like? Did you like them? Did you think it’s different from the other activities you were involved with?

    Rina: [06:47] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Lots of great memories there. Very happy memories. I know my parents were quite busy when I was young, so I couldn’t go to ballet classes every week. It was more so like once in three weeks. But, I was always very, very excited for my next ballet class. I remember all the ballet kids would exchange candies after class, and I would bring a whole bag of chocolates, and I would just give them to the other kids. It was very wholesome.

    Joseph: I can’t remember if I talked with you about this last time, Rina. I’ve got a daughter who’s 5 and 1/2 years old. We took her to baby ballet right down the street. I would take her once a week. It was pre-pandemic. She was going at like the age of 3. We’re not doing it anymore. I guess the question that’s running in my head is, at what point does this go from being kind of like a fun thing to do as a kid to something that became more serious for you. When did that happen?

    Rina: [07:47 8 to 10, when I first started going to point classes, when I first got my point shoes. It was difficult, but it was a challenge that I was excited about. From there, I was kind of imagining my future already as a ballerina. And then, I moved to New York. The teachers there were also very inspiring. That is the real moment where I was like, “I want to be like my teacher.” My teacher was my biggest role model when I was like 12 years old, all the way up to 20. I remember always looking up to her, always fascinated whenever I see her dance. I’m like, “I want to be like her when I grow up.” That was when I was, “I really want to make it to this ballet world.”

    Joseph: What does it take to make it in the ballet world? Did that become clearer to you from the start? How do you assess whether you are one of the, I guess, few ballet students that can make it professionally in the world of ballet?

    Rina: [08:48] Ballet is a very, very competitive industry.  There’s a lot of females, so it’s very competitive. All I knew at that age of like when I was trying to plan out my future and kind of break down the steps in order to go professional, is I have to keep being persistent, keep training, go to competitions, get awarded, get scholarships, get exposure to international schools and companies, go to summer intensives, and get exposure from other prestigious schools so that directors can start seeing me.

    I never once had a summer vacation. I’ve always been training every weekend, every day, every holiday, every summer vacation, “vacation.” I would be at a summer intensive at a different school. You don’t go to college if you are pursuing to be a professional ballerina. Just because if you want to be a professional ballerina, you have to start young. Usually, people aim to sign with the company at the age of 18.

    Joseph: It sounds like this is the level of commitment that it takes in order to break through in that industry. I know you mentioned school before, so it sounds like your schooling was actually focused on the performing arts. Also, you went to the Frank Sinatra School of the Arts for high school. You eventually would go on to the University of Cincinnati. Is that correct? To do your BFA in ballet.

    Rina: [10:21] Yes.

    Joseph: Could you give us a glimpse into your journey as a ballerina, and how that evolved then over time? Going from high school, through doing and studying ballet at the University of Cincinnati.

    Rina: [10:32] I got accepted to Performing Arts High School in New York. My schedule when I was in high school was a lot of dancing. I would dance in the morning. I would go to education classes. Your regular high school, like English, Math, Science, those things. After those, I would go to rehearsals in school. And then, after rehearsals, I would go to my pre-professional intense training studio and train more there.

    And then, came the decision to make on whether I should be auditioning for studio companies or applying to college. That was a big, big question. Because if you’re not a prodigy, you need a plan B. Ultimately, my decision was go to school. Because, I guess, I could make my parents happy, plus also get the ballet experience that I wanted.

    I chose the University of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music. Because from what I saw, they had a good reputation of graduates going on to professional companies. It was a really good experience. I went there for two years, instead of the regular four. Just because at the age of 19, that’s when I signed my first professional contract. I decided to drop out of school. Just because being a professional ballerina was the ultimate goal, and I signed that contract which was my dream. When I signed that contract, I dropped everything and I moved to Spain alone to pursue this full-time.

    Joseph: Before we get to your time working as part of that company in Spain, can you give me a sense of some of the roles that you had up until this point as a ballerina?

    Rina: [12:23] I was “Kitri” in Don Quixote. Very, very exciting. One of my favorite ballets. In the University of Cincinnati, I had a lot of soloist roles. I was “Cupid” in their Don Quixote production as well. I was the “Silver Fairy” in Sleeping Beauty. I was one of the fairies in our Cinderella production, in collaboration with the Dayton Ballet’s artistic director.

    Joseph: “Winter Fairy,” is that right?

    Rina: [12:53] “Winter Fairy,” yes. Thank you. I was one of the fairies. I forgot which one. Another role I was part of the quarter ballet in La Bayadère. I was the first person. This is like all ballet terminologies. There’s this part of the scene in La Bayadère where every dancer has to do an arabesque to penché, and I had to do that 36 times because I was the first person. That was also one of the main highlights of my time at the conservatory.

    Joseph: I want to switch gears here, Rina, and talk about your time in Spain because here you are as someone who has now left college. You are 19 at this time, so a teenager still. You move to Spain all by yourself. Can you take me back to the moment when you landed in Spain, what was running through your head? First of all, being in a new country. But also, getting ready to sign this contract to join a company there.

    Rina: [13:52] It was very exciting. It was like a dream come true. Especially, when I got to Spain. We could also talk about the whole annoying process of getting a Visa, and getting an apartment, all in Spanish. That was a real pain. Especially, doing it alone at 19, too. It was very overwhelming, I remember. I don’t know how I did that. I don’t think I could even do it right now, to be honest. I give props to myself for that for handling that whole situation alone.

    I remember being very, very happy. I’m like, “Okay. This is the start of my professional journey. I’ve made it through pre-professional training. All those long hard years of working hard, and I finally made it to my goal. This was the moment that I’ve been waiting for since a very young age, and I’m here now. I can’t wait to work hard.” And so, those were the feelings that I was feeling when I first landed in Spain.

    Joseph: Now, I don’t know a ton about the world of ballet, Rina. I guess my only real exposure to it was, I went to Northwestern University as an undergraduate student. Between the school of communication and the school of music, there are actually a pretty sizable group of students that are focused on the performing arts. I was actually an R.A. my junior year at a Humanities dorm that was very popular among students majoring in things like dance or theatre. I got a bit of a glimpse into how hard it is to make it as a dancer. Especially, when it comes to ballet, I feel like it’s typically portrayed as extremely competitive, almost cut-throat, at least in the popular press and in Hollywood. I’m thinking about things like “Black Swan.”

    Let’s just talk reality here. The good, bad, and ugly of your time at that company. Maybe it’s best to, first of all, start off with the good. Because it sounds like you landed there, you’re very excited. What did you like about being a ballerina in a professional company?

    Rina: [15:55] I was definitely very humbled. It was hard work getting to where I got. I didn’t want to take anything for granted. I consider myself very lucky too because, as mentioned, this is very competitive. Even signing a contract to be with a ballet company, I was over cloud nine. I consider myself very lucky, very grateful for this opportunity, and very humbled that I’m even at this spot because a million girls would kill to even have this spot in the company. Those were my emotions.

    Joseph: What was your relationship like with the other competitive, I’m assuming, girls who are also part of your company?

    Rina: [16:40] The reason why I was so grateful and humbled, not of course being in the ballet company, but aside from that, it was because I was surrounded by people that were so talented. Never in a million years would I have ever thought that I would be training or dancing next to people that were training in the most prestigious schools in Europe. Like, schools that I could never get into, I was dancing next to them in a company together.

    That was when I would step back and I’ll be like, “Wow! I can’t believe I’m dancing with all of these talented people, almost prodigies, that we’re at the same company dancing together. What’s going on?” That’s why I felt so lucky, so grateful, so humbled. I learned a lot from them. They were very nice people. I definitely knew my place at the company. I’m not trying to be cut-throat here. All I wanted to do was learn from them. That’s part of the good news that we’re starting with, is that I was exposed to a lot of very talented people and nice, nice people.

    Joseph: What was the hardest thing about being part of that company?

    Rina: [17:53] Especially, since we’re talking about an international company here where I don’t speak the language, it was extremely hard for me to even be in this country because Spanish was the only language that people were talking in. Building upon that pressure, I ideally wanted to have more support from the leadership team, but it’s not very common unless you are a very big government-supported company that I feel like the leadership would be good. I was kind of expecting not being too supported, but it really hit me when it was my first professional year. I’m like, “Oh, it is very hard when there’s no strong base of leadership.”

    Joseph: I know when we were talking before this recording. You’d also mentioned that there were some toxic aspects of working in a company. Would you mind walking me through just what aspects of it felt toxic to you?

    Rina: [18:56] Directors, how they valued their dancers, how they treated them, in terms of just, I guess compensation, but also hours and performance opportunities, and values, and morals. Those things. That’s where we’ll get into why I am who I am today. My values and my morals, it’s deeply rooted in my experience as a ballerina.

    Joseph: It sounds like on the one hand being, a professional ballerina, it was incredibly exciting. You’re surrounded by incredibly talented individuals. At the same time, sounds extremely intense, long hours. Perhaps some elements of there being a toxic environment, what was your mental health like during this time? We’ll get to your physical in a moment.

    Rina: [19:544] It wasn’t the best, but I don’t know if I have just toxic positivity. I still remember, literally drilling this in my head like, “Don’t think like that. Don’t think like that. You’re so lucky to be here. You don’t have the privilege to even be thinking about your mental health right now.” I still remember telling myself that.  Like, “A million girls would kill to be in your spot. Why are you even thinking about mental health?” That’s because ballet is so competitive that just to be in this spot, you should be so thankful. I don’t think I even gave myself the space to even think about mental health. Even if it’s toxic, I don’t care.

    Joseph: You’re going to power your way.

    Rina: [20:43] I’m here. Yeah. This is the world. This is the reality. I can’t complain. I knew that that was what I signed up for.

    Joseph: Kind of comes with the territory. So, why allow yourself to complain? I know when we spoke before, you also said something that really struck a nerve with me. You’d said that as much as you had put your whole life into ballet, you didn’t know if you wanted to keep doing it. What exactly were you questioning at that time?

    Rina: [21:10] That was right before I pulled the trigger to make my career change actually. It was a growing pressure of I guess my mental health and my physical health. Just taking a step back to see the experience that I was having in this company, is it really worth it? At a certain point, I was like, “Okay, is this sustainable?” Because I can drill a million positive affirmations into my head, but I just had a breaking point. Even if I change companies and dance at a different company, is this also going to be my experience at that company? The weight of my experience at this company, it being my first professional experience, it just took a big toll on me and it gave me a very scared impression of what I would be going through for the rest of my career if I were to stay on this path. That’s when I really had to face reality.

    By facing reality, I had to be completely transparent with myself and what I wanted out of life. It was extremely hard just because I was finally at this path of being a ballerina because I signed my first professional contract and dancing in my first professional company. It’s just very ironic that I was even questioning this. But, because of everything that I was going through, I really just had to step back and see if I would be down to put myself through more of these just to climb a ladder.

    That’s when I remember I was just sitting in my apartment in Spain just literally crying a lot. There’s also the investment of my parents and my teachers. They put so much money into my training. They’ve put so much belief in me. They’ve seen my growth. They see my potential. Do I really want to let them down?

    Joseph: It’s tough. We talk about this on this show, Rina. You’ve invested so much time into one particular career path, and you almost don’t want to even allow yourself to entertain the idea of walking away from it. Was there a particular moment that you can remember when you did decide that you’re not going to pursue ballet anymore?

    Rina: [23:35] After my whole breakdown of me thinking about all these factors in my head in my apartment in Spain, seeing if I should pull the trigger or not, what I decided to do after that was go to Japan to get treatment. Because I was also suffering from an injury that couldn’t really be diagnosed in all the hospital visits in my time in Spain. I decided to go back to Japan just to take a little bit of a break. Because I thought maybe time was what I needed to form a decision.

    There were a lot of things that happened in Japan. I remember being so traumatized by ballet that I couldn’t even watch any ballet videos or listen to any classical music. Every time I saw a ballet video on my Instagram page, I had to skip it over or else I would get anxiety. It just ruined my passion for ballet as a whole. That’s when I decided, “Okay. If I can’t even be listening or watching ballet, I don’t know how I’m going to even dance in a company given my mental health towards ballet at this point.”

    Joseph: Now, you would eventually move back to New York. Is that correct?

    Rina: [24:56] Yeah.

    Joseph: And then, you started to think about doing some other things. Can you walk me through how you started to then pick up the pieces and move forward having now decided to walk away from ballet?

    Rina: [25:11] When I went back to New York, I started becoming more active in my career change exploration per se. That was when I started exploring courses, and seeing what fields are even outside of ballet. What normal person my age would be doing. I had to re-educate myself on those things and figure out, “Oh, there are internships. There are work studies.” Like, “Oh, these things exist. That’s interesting.” During that process as well, that was when I started also exploring other potential career fields. Such as there’s business, there’s marketing. I took a lot of intro classes just to get my feet wet into different types of industries and fields.

    During that time, it was actually the start of COVID, too. It was a very scary time. But, even though it was scary, there was also opportunities in terms of everything became virtual. It gave me chances to explore things all online in my own time. It did benefit this exploration period.

    Joseph: And then, which direction did you ultimately decide to go in with your continuing education?

    Rina: [26:25] I was debating between psychology, languages, and design. I ultimately chose design. The reason why I chose design is because I remember when I was little, I had to choose between design and ballet. I was actually very passionate in creating things since a young age. I loved scrapbooking. I love playing with clay. I loved just designing, in general. But, I loved ballet more, so I chose ballet.

    So, when I stumbled upon design again, I’m like, “Okay. Maybe this is my chance to actually take this seriously and learn more about design.” Like, it has some sort of psychological aspect. It has the actual creation aspect. It has this problem-solving aspect. Understanding that, I saw the potential of me actually enjoying it. That’s when I pulled the trigger, and I decided to go to school for it, and I decided to enroll in career foundaries year-long boot camp just to get a better understanding of foundation and more about what this field is like.

    Joseph: Last question for you about how you end up going into this current industry of yours before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. How did you end up landing your role at Mooch?

    Rina: [27:54] I knew that ultimately I’ve wanted to inspire other people using my career journey. That was when I was being very proactive and investing in my personal branding as well. Doing so, actually led me to a couple of opportunities starting with internships. Also, that eventually became job roles. And then, my first employer found me through LinkedIn. I think that’s because of all my content creation that I was doing since starting the boot camp.

    Joseph: You were blogging at the time, is that right?

    Rina: [28:28] I was doing a lot of content posting on LinkedIn, on my blogs on Instagram. When I was working on my first full-time job, which was a B2B SAS product, I already knew that FinTech is an industry that I’ve always wanted to work in. That was my goal. I knew I wanted to work in the B2C space as well because I do love to understand how consumers behave and think. I’ve always known that. It’s just very fascinating to me. I knew that my first full-time job was just a transition state just to get my experience going. That’s when a friend of mine actually introduced me to Mooch. From there, I became one of the founding members. I was like number four into the team. I’ve been with the team since pre-launch, and it’s been just an amazing journey. It really feels like I’m building with friends. I can’t be more grateful that I am at this company. I’m building a product that I love. I’m building it with people that I love as well.

    Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up, Rina, are just some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your career journey. You’ve gone from ballet, went through a very challenging period, eventually decided to walk away from that career, and then have now landed in a place that sounds like you’re really, really happy I know you recently spoke at UX Copenhagen in early 2023. As I understand it, you drew some parallels between ballet and product design. What are one or two ways that you see the two being somewhat similar?

    Rina: [30:11] These are things that I never even thought could be similar when I first started my career change, and it all started making sense when I started becoming more involved in product design. Product design and ballet are both creations where emotions are very important in the process development.

    For example, how do I want my audience to feel as they watch me dance, is a big driver as to how I’m presenting my movements and how I am even showcasing artistry while I dance. For example, in Swan Lake, it’s a very sad story. In Don Quixote, I’m very sassy and I want it to be a fun experience when the audience is watching this ballet. In Sleeping Beauty, it’s very happy. If I’m a fairy, it has to be very light and very like staccato, very happy light feeling. And so, the takeaway here is what’s the emotion that I want to express while I’m dancing. Same in product design, what do I want my partners to feel as they go through these screens and go through these experiences?

    The second thing I covered was structure, in ballet, there’s a lot of behind-the-scenes that goes on into presenting a movement. From the audience perspective, it might look like I’m just lifting my leg or I’m just dancing on my toes. But, there’s actually a lot of technical sides of how I’m actually presenting that movement. In comparison to product design, how am I structuring complicated technical logic of how this feature is supposed to work into very processable designs where people using the app will be like, “Oh, this is super easy. I just toggle this on and toggle this off.” The hierarchy ways of looking at a specific screen is very easy. It’s very easy to use. The usability is there. The experiences there. Like, we’re not supposed to make people think when they use a design. The result of that is how well do you structure those complicated logics into processable designs.

    Joseph: One thing we’ve also spoken about before, and something I know you have written about, is this idea that you should prioritize fulfillment in your career and life. Although I know that makes sense intuitively, I also know that fulfillment is not always an easy thing to prioritize because sometimes, it feels at odds with practicality, or societal expectations, or investment, or other constraints that you have in your life. I would be interested to hear how would you describe how you’ve attempted to prioritize fulfillment in your career in life.

    Rina: [32:58] It comes down to a lot of things but the first thing that I want to emphasize is values and morals when it comes to deciding what you want to do. I feel very humble to even be able to say this because I am able to prioritize fulfillment in my life, but I know that that’s not the case for everybody. So, in order to understand what fulfillment means to you, I have a very strong basis of what I want from a company and what I want my day-to-day to look like. Transparency and awareness around mental health. I would like to work with in a company that values it as much as I do and doesn’t ignore it because at the end of the day, we’re all human and I want to be in a company where they know that we’re all human.

    I really try to evaluate a leadership team before I say yes to what offer, or before I decide to continue or not continue with the company. That drives fulfillment for me a lot, mental health, well-being. Also, are you working towards a vision that you want to work for? For me, modernizing finances has been a goal of mine. Even if I am experiencing hardships at work or work stress, the vision is there. I know that my teammates and I are aligned on our vision together. That is how I persevere and can persevere. Going back to the whole values, vision is also a big part for me. If the team is right and if the vision is there, then I know I can do it. That plays a big role in value, and then fulfilment.

    Joseph: Last question for you, Rina, before we wrap up with what you’re doing now. Sometimes, if you come from a very different industry, trying to break into a new sector or job, you might actually see your background as a bit of a liability, especially if you’re competing with more traditional candidates for a specific role.

    Rina: [35:10] Tell me about it.

    Joseph: I’m just speculating that this may have come up with you. I’m just wondering if someone is struggling with this, do you have any tips on how you can see your background as a strength instead of a weakness?

    Rina: [35:25] This is something that I’m still struggling with. It’s definitely a big liability. At a point, it was kind of an insecurity, to be honest. Because after I changed careers, my accomplishments in ballet didn’t mean anything. It was kind of a pride to clear as well. I had to literally start from scratch. Especially getting to that first job as well because again, accomplishments in my previous industry did not matter. Those 15 years of hard work did not matter.

    There are workarounds, but also what I did was embrace my background and the way I did that was through personal branding. How do I make myself more valuable by utilizing my previous experience? There were no hard skills that could translate over to technology. I really had to see how I could work with my background, and that was by actually embracing my background and seeing how I can use my soft skills that I learned in ballet, translate to technology. I really tried to market myself through personal branding.

    The first thing not to do is to be insecure about your background, like how I was at the very start, and to think that that means nothing because it does. If I were to continue being insecure about my background when I first started career changing, I don’t think I would have given a talk at UX Copenhagen. Because ultimately, my talk at UX Copenhagen was one of the parallels between classical ballet and product design. The reason why I got to do that talk is because I start embracing my background and started trying to break down how I was able to transition into a totally separate industry from ballet.

    Joseph: I want to wrap up, Rina, with what you’re doing right now. Tell me a little bit more about your growth newsletter.

    Rina: [37:27] I recently, very recently, started writing about my growth and documenting my journey. I’m very passionate in growth in general. I’ve always had a passion for documenting things. I was documenting my personal branding and all of that, and that was how my first employer found me. Even now, even though I do have experience and I have a job and all of that, I still prioritize growth in my day-to-day. And so, I created this newsletter where I share with other people what I’m learning at work. If they are interested in product design or start-ups, I write a lot about that. Even when I have conversations, like the one we’re having right now, I write my takeaways in those newsletters. Basically, it’s a newsletter about life, growth, and everything in between. It’s been an exciting journey.

    Joseph: If people want to learn more about you, or if they want to sign up for your growth newsletter, where could they go?

    Rina: [38:30] You can search me on LinkedIn or Instagram. It’s just my first name and my last name, pretty standard.

    Joseph: Finally, are you still dancing?

    Rina: [38:39] Yes. I am dancing. I am. I dance at least once a week just to keep my technique up. It’s been a great time. I made the right decision at the end of the day because I now have my passion back.

    Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Rina, for taking me through your life as a ballerina and the steps you took to open up a new path for yourself in product design, during the pandemic, by the way. And also, the importance of prioritizing fulfillment in your life. Best of luck with your role at Mooch, and your newsletter, and also your dancing. Thanks for joining us today.

    Rina: [39:21] Thank you so much, Joseph. It was such a great time.

    25 May 2023, 2:04 pm
  • 47 minutes 27 seconds
    Setting Clear Boundaries with Ali Jawa- CR95

    Setting clear boundaries in your career is critical to maintaining a good work-life balance, positive professional relationships, and your own mental sanity. And setting boundaries is especially important when you’re a doctor, where you not only experience a lot of stress and pressure, but your own well-being can affect your ability to take care of the people depending on you for care.

    On episode 95 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Ali Jawa, a practicing endocrinologist turned medical director shares his thoughts on setting boundaries, acknowledging career stagnation, and making a non-traditional move within one’s industry.  I also share some thoughts on defining your walkaway points in your career during the Mental Fuel® segment.

    Key Career Takeaways

    1. At some point, you have to make a choice about the boundaries you’re going to set between your personal and professional life.
    2. The intellectual challenge in one’s career is crucial for personal and professional growth, as it encourages continuous learning and the development of new skills and perspectives.
    3. Having your feet on two different boats moving in different directions is extremely challenging. While you can bounce back and forth for a while, at some point, you have to leap and commit to one or the other.
    4. You need to get clear with yourself about “why” you want to pursue a specific career path.
    5. You can’t keep planning forever. You have to take action to honor those things you value most in your career and life.

    Resources Mentioned

    Listener Challenge

    During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about the importance of defining what your action threshold or tipping point will be before you take action.

    Think about which milestone you want to cross, what amount of time should pass, what state a relationship should reach, or how badly you’ll let your well-being suffer. What will it take, how far will you allow yourself to go before you can no longer NOT act?

    About Ali Jawa, Medical Director at Wilcare

    Ali Jawa
    Ali Jawa is a doctor from Pakistan who moved to the US 27 years ago for advanced medical training in Internal Medicine, Endocrinology, & clinical research. He eventually returned to Pakistan to become a professor at a top public-sector medical university there. Over the next decade, he built his clinical practice, set up a medical center called WilCare, served as President of the Pakistan Endocrine Society, & trained several doctors to become endocrinologists like himself. Since 2015, he’s been the Medical Director of WilCare on a full-time basis.

    Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
     Leave Joseph a Voicemail
    You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

    Thanks to A2 Hosting for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast

    A2 Hosting LogoA2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan.

    Interview Segment Music Credits

    Episode Interview Transcript

    Joseph: Okay. Ali, welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Salam Alaikum.

    Ali: [03:08] Wa Alaikum Salam, and the pleasure is mine. Thank you for having me, Joseph.

    Joseph: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you tolerating my attempt at Urdu at the start here. But I got to try to use a little bit of what I learned last month in Pakistan when I visited you guys out there. The last time you and I spoke face to face was sitting at a sushi restaurant in Lahore over dinner after a workshop I hosted out there. I know you’re a very busy guy. I was wondering if you could just start us off by telling me what you’ve been focused on recently, both personally and also professionally in your life.

    Ali: [03:41] Lately, I have been focusing on my business. My primary business is running a medical center based in Lahore. Other than that, I enjoy interacting with my peers and friends in Entrepreneurs’ Organization. I belong to the Lahore chapter, and I actively engaged with them for the past five years.

    Joseph: That’s actually where you and I first met. It was nice to have you in the audience there and to be able to speak with you afterward. One of the things you just mentioned is that you’re a medical director. Your organization is called Wilcare. Can you just give me a snapshot of what Wilcare does and the patient population that you serve?

    Ali: [04:24] Wilcare is an outpatient medical facility. We have been in existence since 2008. It has been an amazing experience in the sense that initially started with a smaller place. As we developed our clientele and the patient population grew, we expanded. We developed a structure. We primarily deal with patients and clients referred by other businesses for medical check-ups. That is been the bread and butter of Wilcare for the past almost 15 years.

    Joseph: Can you also just explain briefly how health care works there in Pakistan? I heard a little bit about this from you when I was there. Can you explain the general setup private versus public and how patients typically access care there?

    Ali: [05:17] Patients tend to have a choice. They choose who they want to see, and that is essentially because they are self-pay. They’re paying out of their own pocket. There is a small group of people who have insurance and they have a structure in place in which they go to preferred providers, but it’s not as well-developed as in the West such as in America. It’s basically the patient chooses who they want to go and see; a specialist, a generalist, a family doctor. It’s up to them. Majority of the care is being provided by the private sector. But in all over Pakistan, the government sector exists and does provide coverage to primarily lower social economic classes.

    Joseph: Before we go back in time and talk about how you got to where you are today, Ali, I know that you’re also a busy family man and you are a father. Can you give me a snapshot of your family structure, kids? How that looks for you right now?

    Ali: [06:18] I have a big family. My children are all grown up. When you have to deal with your family life as well as your business, especially when you are a practicing doctor, at times, the family gets compromised. I do have to admit that my family life was somewhat compromised in the start of my career in Pakistan. Eventually, kind of an equilibrium and a little bit more towards the family. The tilt has been more evident.

    Joseph: Let’s go back in time and let’s talk about how you became a doctor in the first place. You haven’t always been the medical director at Wilcare. Can we talk about your days when you were focused solely on the clinical side of medicine? I’d like to start from the very, very beginning. When did you decide that you wanted to be a doctor?

    Ali: [07:08] In Pakistan, when I was growing up, the usual choices, the preferred choices were to be either a doctor or an engineer. Pretty much the decision happens based on how much marks do you get, and when you get a good grade, and they say, “Oh, you are eligible to become enrolled in a medical college. You should become a doctor or an engineer.” If not, then everything else comes afterward.

    Fortunately, I had good marks and my family persuaded me to become a doctor so I became a doctor. When I was still in the final year of my medical training, undergrad medical training, my friends and my family kind of nudged me to consider going to United States for post-graduation. In 1996, after I completed my med school, I went to America. I did my residency in internal medicine. Afterward, I’m in primary care doc in the VA system up there in Upstate New York. Afterward, I did my fellowship at Tulane University New Orleans, Louisiana.

    Afterward, almost after 10 years of being in United States, I came back to Pakistan as a professor and I joined a leading public sector University in Rohan. I started with practice, built my practice, while also setting up my medical center, which started in 2008. I juggled academic, appointment in the morning, clinic in the afternoon, as well as managing my medical center somewhere in between wherever I had time. This overlap lasted about I would say almost seven years.

    Joseph: Let’s go through these one at a time here. Because I know you went through a quick time-lapse of some major — both geographical and also professional changes. When you first went to the United States, did you know what kind of doctor you wanted to be?

    Ali: [09:05] I wanted to be a gastroenterologist. However, during my training, I tend to develop a little interest in pulmonology, that’s being a lung specialist. And then, I said, “You know what? I don’t like it either.” So, I took two years working as a primary care doc to have a feel what is actually in real life. I said either I become a rheumatologist or an endocrinologist. Since some of my family members had diabetes, I said, “I’ll become an endocrinologist.” My decision-making was not that complex. It was probably emotional in nature, I guess.

    Joseph: Can you explain exactly what endocrinology is? For those people who are not familiar with it. What drew you to that? I know you mentioned you knew some people who had diabetes. Was there something in particular that enabled you to choose that over the rheumatology or the pulmonology, some of those other things you were considering?

    Ali: [10:04] Endocrinology is primarily, in layman’s terms, is somebody who deals with hormones. But that’s an oversimplification. It is a two-year training in the United States. After you have completed three years of internal medicine residency. Most of the patients in endocrinology are pertaining to diabetes, and also thyroid and other hormonal diseases come under the ambit of endocrinology.

    I realized kind of during my training that I’m not a very hands-on guy. I like more intellectual work in which there is complex decision-making that requires a little bit more attention to detail. Rheumatology and endocrinology both appealed to me. There was a sense overall that the diabetes epidemic is a clear and present danger for humanity. I tended to find that to be something more relevant for me. But that was just my feeling at that time, and that’s why I pursued endocrinology.

    Joseph: The other thing I would love to hear about is your first years there in the United States. I know you’re focused on your medical studies there, but I’ve been to Lahore and I’ve been to Upstate New York and I’ve been to New Orleans. Those places are very different from one another. What was it like to go from Pakistan and live and learn in the United States for you during those years?

    Ali: [11:38] It was very challenging for several reasons. Starting from how we drive here to how we interact with patients, how do you get your children to go to school, what is the education system for them, how do you interact with your family and extended family after such a long gap. All of the things were challenges and they were welcome challenges. I believe I was ready for it. I knew because I came from here, I went from here. I was familiar with the overall situation. It took some time but I had a big support from my wife and my family. When you reach a certain level of frustration, you have a support group that helps you cope with it. That has been a great blessing for me.

    Joseph: The other thing I was wondering if you could talk about was this balance between being a professor at Tulane versus actually seeing patients in the clinic. Can you explain how you balance those two, and how much you enjoyed one versus the other?

    Ali: [12:55] Honestly, I think I enjoyed teaching more than clinical. However, clinical has its own advantages. You tend to apply what you’ve learned and you teach if you’ve been teaching to your med school students and other doctors. When you test them in real life, they kind of reaffirm as well as instigate or agitate you to perhaps do some research on them. Many of the clinical trials that are conducted in the United States, as well as in Pakistan, they were driven by the real-life scenarios, the challenges that we’re facing.

    In Pakistan, the research was a little different for us. Because they were so-called clinical research that was strongly anchored into the real life. We had to utilize methods in which we did not do a lot of laboratory testing, but it was worth my while. The time I spent in research in Pakistan.

    Joseph: You’re at Tulane University. You’re an assistant professor of medicine there. What triggered you to then return to Pakistan?

    Ali: [14:10] Actually, when I left, I had made my plan that I am going to return back. The psychological limit was 10 years. As soon I was close to it, I was already wrapping it up. Fortunately, there was an opportunity in which the government of Pakistan would hire you from the United States when you come back to Pakistan into a leading university. They would place you. They would pay you. They would facilitate research for you. It was a dream come true for me because that’s what kind of let me stay in academics for almost 15 years when I returned to Pakistan.

    Joseph: Do you remember the moment when you stepped off the airplane there in Pakistan, and what that was like for you to be back there after being away for so long? Can you take me back to that moment?

    Ali: [15:06] I was very happy because it was a new challenge. I knew I had the support of my family who were in Pakistan. I had the support of my wife who was also in alignment and was committed along with me to make it in Pakistan.

    Joseph: Before we talk about what you’re currently doing, I do want to dive a little bit deeper into your life as a doctor and as an endocrinologist. I was out to dinner with my 5-year-old daughter the other day. We were talking about the different jobs that people have in the restaurant where we were eating. She asked me, “Daddy, who has the busiest job in the world?” The very first profession that I could come up with was a doctor, which is what I actually told her.

    As you know, many years ago, I thought about becoming a doctor myself. One of the things that eventually convinced me not to pursue medicine was a realization that the pace and the intensity of the job was not something I was going to be able to handle. How intense was your life as an endocrinologist and what was your day-to-day life like?

    Ali: [16:11] It was brutal. Especially, the first three, four years after I came back to Pakistan because the challenge was that I need to demonstrate that I am fit to integrate. In the morning, from 8:00 to 2:00, I would be at the university. I would be doing clinical rounds. I would be supervising the medical doctors in the outpatient clinic, that would start somewhere like 10:30ish till 1:30. I would also be giving talks to all levels of medical students and doctors. After 2 o’clock, I would take a small break to have lunch. And then, I would start my clinic, like 3 o’clock-ish till like 7:00, 8:00.

    Joseph: That’s when you see your own patients between 3:00 –?

    Ali: [16:58] My own patients. It was a challenge in that sense that the patients at time would not follow you as you would like them to be. They have different motivations. You get frustrated that they know that this thing is not working, and they still don’t follow the advice. With time, I tend to realize that I cannot control my patients. All I can do is the best advice I can give, adjust it for them. You be keeping their socioeconomic status in mind, keeping their physical ability to take medicine in mind, keeping their support at home in mind. And if they still don’t follow, it’s up to them.

    This realization came after a couple of years. Because I was very much used to giving advice in the United States, and the patient would follow. Because they would — medicine will be covered by the insurance. They would have a minimum co-payment for their visit. They would keep to their appointment, but this was 180 degrees. But when I adjusted to it, I started to realize not every patient is going to be a model patient. I need to be accepting of it and not worry too much about it. That was the moment when it became a little easier.

    However, it was tough because patients in Pakistan demand you to be present and available even in off hours. At times, it is very inconvenient. I had to make a compromise that I had to draw a limit to when I’m going to answer their questions when even if they’re calling from home. This took some time. It was back and forth. And then, you eventually find your sweet spot. When you don’t compromise your family life and you also deliver service to your patients.

    Joseph: You mentioned family life there, Ali. I know you’ve got five children now. At the time, when you were working these really long days, starting off with doing rounds, 8:00 a.m., and then spending the last half of your day seeing your own patients, can you describe what your family life was like at that time?

    Ali: [19:12] I might have neglected and might have missed some very precious moments in an early part of my transition in the couple of years. Eventually, when things started to settle down, first, I drew a line that I will never practice on a Saturday. In America, it’s five days. In Pakistan, it was unheard of. People still practice six days a week. Second, I made a vow that I will not practice in the evening. Most people did tend to practice in the evening. Sometimes, late hours. The third thing was that I had some dedicated off hours and days, which I started to enforce in the third year after I settled in Pakistan. Eventually, I was able to carve a safe time for me and my family. It was a challenge but I did eventually find what I wanted to do.

    Joseph: This pace of being a doctor where you are working these long hours, seeing people who are in a lot of need, who are sick, need a lot of help, I suppose it doesn’t leave you with a tremendous amount of time to think about yourself as much. I’m curious to hear a little bit about the typical career trajectory of a doctor. In many professions and in many industries, a lot of people are thinking about, “When am I going to get promoted? Which company am I going to move to next?” In the world of physicians, in the world of doctors, how does that look in terms of your own career progression? How much do you think about it, and what does it typically look like for the average doctor?

    Ali: [20:56] Student academics, it is presumed that you will take the linear pathway. You will be from assistant professor to become an associate professor, then a professor. Then, you’ll become head of the department. If luck would have it, you would become dean or a principal of a medical college. That is a typical trajectory.

    If you’re in the private practice, you build your practice to a certain level that you’re in demand and get other people to request you to give them an early appointment. That is the other trajectory. Third is that people tend to go to administration. They tend to like to manage a system. Including managing the schedules of doctors, as well as the non-doctor support staff.

    Academically, I think I was already ahead of the game. So, there was not much for me to further hone but I did enjoy it. I enjoyed training other doctors to become endocrinologists like myself. That was my passion. I became an examiner. I traveled a lot to take their exams. I mentored them. I taught them. That gave me a lot of joy.

    As with practice, I reached the pinnacle very, very soon. That was, to be very straightforward, was very boring. Practice was somewhat not a very engaging activity for me.

    Joseph: Does it get repetitive to see the same type of patient?

    Ali: [22:31] Yes.

    Joseph: Because I guess most doctors are specialists. And so, I’ve always wondered what that’s like how repetitive it gets.

    Ali: [22:36] You’re seeing the same kind of patients: different names, different ages, different backgrounds. They pretty much have a certain level of complexity, and you tend to crave complex patients. Not the really simple ones. The really simple ones are easy breezy but there’s no intellectual challenge. That is what makes it difficult for you to keep the same enthusiasm that you would have in other challenging situation. Frankly speaking, I lost interest in practice not because it was not financially rewarding, it was not intellectually challenging for me anymore.

    Joseph: You’re about to talk about the administrative side of things. I know that you eventually made a pivot toward the business side of things. Can you take me through those years when you were starting to tinker with the idea of moving into the more business side of medicine?

    Ali: [23:37] The medical center was like if you can call it on the back burner and simmering along very nicely and quietly on a certain pace, while I was teaching and seeing patients. Something happened in 2015. The stimulus and the nudge that I got was from a younger brother, who’s also a businessman. He had attended an immersive learning activity that was a two-week workshop in Lahore in one of the leading management schools. LUMS (Lahore University of Management Sciences) is the name of it.

    He took it in 2013, and he was able to apply all those tools in the business. He encouraged me to attend that. I took that course in 2015. The tools, it gave me, the ability to lead my team. I was able to objectively quantify improvement in my business. That was exhilarating because it was a very different way. Being a doctor, it’s a one-man show. You are where the buck stops. You are there but you say the patient either does it or doesn’t do it.

    But in managing people, you need to be able to mobilize a team. The team consists of people who are very different. Some have a different aptitude. Some have different approach to work and you cannot force anything. In students, you have a certain influence. You are a senior doc. You have a gravitas, you have a certain influence. But to develop an interest in your workplace, it’s a very different approach. Once I got hooked to it, I was not turning back.

    Joseph: How do you balance both the clinical and the medical director work during the early years of that transition into eventually running Wilcare?

    Ali: [25:42] I hired a few people for the lead positions, including the administrative positions. Unfortunately, even that is somewhat true now, if they are good administrators, they don’t understand the medical or the healthcare business. If they are doctors, they are not good administrators. The challenge is there because the healthcare industry is still not as well-developed as in the United States. You have to groom them in-house. That is the conclusion I came up with.

    In the initial years, it was very frustrating. Because when you are relying on someone to take care of your day-to-day task and it doesn’t get done, then you have to do it. To be in the firefighting mode, it’s very frustrating. That can easily be the summary of my first seven years, up till 2015 when I tried I had to make compromises. I had to try different people try to gel in and develop a culture. After 2015, I started to discipline myself, manage myself. And then, I started to get the people to work accordingly and did not — they were asked to move on. I eventually started to make a team that was aligned with my vision.

    Joseph: Balancing two different worlds can be tricky. It’s something we talk about a lot on this show. You’ve got your day job, like your actual job. And then, you’ve got this other side interest that you’re nurturing and developing. At some point, it becomes very hard to balance the two. Did you experience that, and at what point did you decide that you had to make a choice to commit to one or the other?

    Ali: [27:45] In 2015, I was appointed as a professor in Islamabad, the capital city of Pakistan. Since I was going to be there five days a week, I cut down my clinic to one day a week in Lahore. At that time, administration was 30%, clinical 10%, and the rest 50% was academic activity in Islamabad. In 2017, I quit academics totally and I cut down my clinical to 5%, and 95% was administration. At this time, that is pretty much the similar ratio. My clinical is now a barely 5% and it’s restricted to friends and families. Rest of the time is administration, mobilization, and team building for Wilcare.

    Joseph: Do you feel like this was a natural evolution? Or did you have to make some choices at some point to say, “I’m going to stop seeing a certain number of patients. I’m not going to be in the classroom anymore.” I’m just curious to hear about whether this happened on its own, or did you make some intentional moves to make this happen.

    Ali: [28:56] I wanted to get out of my comfort zone, and I wanted to go to a different academic university out of town, out of Lahore, so I can increase my exposure and learning. I knew that if I go out of Lahore, I will have to cut down my clinical practice and that was desired. Because if you’re in Lahore, people expect you to come in and see them even if you don’t want to. Because they see you, you are here, just come and see me and it becomes a challenge. It was somewhat intentional.

    By not resuming clinical after leaving my government job in 2017, that was definitely intentional. Because I could not go back to my doctor’s chambers and start seeing patients again. It’s just that life is too short to not do what you want to do.

    Joseph: That’s interesting. I think a lot of us have different interests and many of us have also invested into a particular path in our careers. Now, becoming a doctor requires many years of education, training, experience. Was that hard for you at all to let go of seeing patients or not?

    Ali: [30:07] Not at all.

    Joseph: Not at all.

    Ali: [30:09] I was mentally prepared, and it was tough for my friends who referred patients to me because they trusted me. What I did was intentionally transitioned. Another colleague of mine who I referred all my patients in my absence to her so that she can build her practice. There was no excuse, “Oh, who do I get go and see?” I say, “Well, you can go and see her. She’s there.” But they would say, “Oh, she’s not you.” “Yes,” I say. “Yeah, that’s fine. But she’s as good or even better than me.”

    Joseph: As you think about the doctors in your sphere professionally, I’m guessing there’s probably others that you know who maybe want to make a shift out of the clinical world and do more of what you’re doing, which is more of the business administrative side of things. What do you think stops doctors from letting go of the clinical side of things?

    Ali: [31:04] It is the ego. When the patient comes and sees you for their ailment, you feel good in your heart. It boosts your ego. It makes you as if you have made a difference. This instant gratification holds you back.

    Joseph: Well, the last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up with what some of your interests are outside of medicine are the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your career journey. Because I know you’ve made a couple major pivots here, both geographically and also in the nature of your work. What is something that you wished you had known about branching off to do something else in your career that you now know having made this transition from clinical endocrinologist to medical director?

    Ali: [31:54] They always felt I knew everything, even if it’s not something to do with medicine. I heavily discounted the skill sets, the attitude, and the work ethic of people around me. This held me back because I was not appreciative enough of them, I was not grateful to them, I was not acknowledging them. So, if I had early on realized that, “You know what? I can do work maximum of two or three people. But if I have a well-honed team of people, like 10 people, I can do work of 30.” This realization came a little late, but better late than sorry, I guess.

    I think the biggest influence one book that made in my life was “Rich Dad, Poor Dad.” It gave me hope. This is the book by Robert Kiyosaki. It gave me hope that even if you are working, you can become a businessman eventually. If you want to, do it side by side. That was one of the practical things that I learned. Similarly, other books when I started reading non-medical books, I came across a wealth of information and knowledge that how one can shift gears, take new challenges, and develop a business while still doing or working for someone.

    Joseph: If you had to give advice to your younger self about what it takes to make your career in medicine evolve into what it’s become right now, what would that be?

    Ali: [33:47] Marshall Goldsmith had very eloquently mentioned that we have a program identity and we have a created identity. Many times, we are working on a programmer identity most of our life, that is shaped at the age of 3 to 23. I would strongly urge the younger people to dig deeper and find out what are you, what do you think you are, and why do you want to do this work. Create your own identity.

    Do you want to be a practicing doctor? Just go for it. You need to know why you want to do it. Because you like to treat people one-on-one. Do you want to create a system in which the patients or customers or clients they come in and get good service, and you think you can do it by being an administrator? Go for that.

    If you find that you want to create a culture in which the society benefits from your presence, and you are able to build a system in the community by working for the government, or by teaching, become a professor. You need to know why you want to do something. Don’t keep doing it because somebody has told you early on, “You are good at this.” Dig deeper, find out what are you good at, what makes you happy, and what do you enjoy.

    Joseph: Finally, what’s something you’ve learned about yourself, Ali, as you’ve made this move from the clinical side of medicine to the business side of medicine?

    Ali: [35:18] I need to have patience. Another thing I want to know is that I need to have a certain stock gap or some kind of a limit to procrastination. I need to take action. Because I cannot keep on planning things forever. I need to get feedback from all stakeholders around because I may not have all the right answers or I might have missed something which can either illuminate and can make the process or project a success.

    Joseph: Well, I want to wrap up with some of your interests outside of medicine and the medical world, Ali. We had a chance to spend a bit of time together last month when I was in Lahore, both at my workshop and also afterward over dinner and I know you have a lot of different interests. Let’s just pick one here. Can you tell me a little bit more about your interest in food security, which I know is another area you’re very passionate about?

    Ali: [36:14] It’s simply fascinating. I came across this concept when there was a USAID grant program for people to set up a business. One of the areas they had was agriculture. When I dig deeper, I came across that almost 70% of the fruit and vegetables that are produced in Pakistan, get lost after harvesting. I thought this was a huge loss. What if there is a way to save it? When you save it and you make it useful for the people to consume it, maybe you can contribute significantly to reduce hunger in the world.

    This has been my passion since 2017, and I had been studying it. I had the chance to interact with a lot of people, especially the young entrepreneurs. Recently, I came across a couple of entrepreneurs who are working on projects to extract value from fruits so that they are able to reduce waste and create food that is to be consumed by the people. I feel that if courage ordinary people, students, and other business-inclined people to start looking at it that how we can save fruit, food, vegetables, and grains so that they can be useful for people in Pakistan and the world. This could really change the landscape. With climate change, the food scarcity roaming around all over the world, this could be a very good way to secure food for the world.

    Joseph: Very interesting, Ali. I just really appreciated you taking the time today to tell us more about your time as an endocrinologist, your shift into the business side of medicine, and also the importance of making sure you take the time to understand your motivations behind your career moves.

    So, best of luck with everything at Wilcare, your interest in food security and scarcity, and also with everything you’ve got going on there in Lahore.

    27 April 2023, 12:00 am
  • 50 minutes 1 second
    Controlling Your Narrative with Maura Lightfoot- CR94

    Controlling your own professional narrative is especially important when you’re changing career paths. Proactively taking control of your own narrative helps you ensure that your unique value and aspirations come through clearly and convincingly.

    On episode 94 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, HR adviser turned executive coach Maura Lightfoot shares her thoughts on finding your voice in an environment where you’re an outlier and the importance of identifying the common thread across all your diverse professional experiences.  I also share some thoughts on the importance of owning your own narrative during the Mental Fuel® segment.

    Key Career Takeaways

    1. Working abroad gives you an opportunity to find your unique voice when you are an outlier and minority in your workplace.
    2. When you’re proud of the work you do and an organization values someone with your unique skillset and background, that’s a sign you’re working for the right employer.
    3. Working in a mission-driven world doesn’t preclude you from burnout. In fact, you may be more susceptible to burnout because you’re so passionate about your work.
    4. Find the common thread across your work. Everyone has the power to author their own story.
    5. Often, you must go through a bit of messy upheaval in your career before you eventually find your way. It’s just part of the journey.

    Listener Challenge


    My challenge to you is to take some time to identify the common thread across all the work you currently do and have done in the past. What’s been your common motivation across your roles? What’s the singular purpose that gets you out of bed each day? Try to capture it in words and see how it sits with you. Share that statement with others to see how it lands with them.

    Making an effort to articular this can hopefully provide you with some clarity and direction when exploring new opportunities and communicating what you bring to the table in those situations.

    About Maura Lightfoot, Executive Coach

    Maura Lightfoot

    Maura Lightfoot knows a lot about taking control of your professional narrative. Consistent throughout Maura’s career has been her drive to empower others in their work. From human resources in the Middle East to financial services management consulting in London to nonprofit organizational culture in Washington D.C., Maura’s international experience equips her with a unique perspective that’s both grounded and global.

    Now an executive leadership coach, Maura works with clients around the world including North America, Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. Learn more about Maura’s coaching work or connect with her on LinkedIn.

    Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
     Leave Joseph a Voicemail
    You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

    Thanks to Wise for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast

    Try WiseWise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise.

    Interview Segment Music Credits

    Episode Interview Transcript

    Maura: [03:01] Thank you so much for having me, Joseph. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m so delighted to reconnect in this way, and really looking forward to the conversation.

    Joseph: Well, let’s get started by getting a glimpse into what’s happening for you at this particular moment. What are you focused on right now in your career and also your life?

    Maura: [03:19] I’m currently based in Bethesda, Maryland, which is just outside of Washington, D.C. It’s wonderful because it’s rich in culture. It’s an incredibly diverse place to live, and so we’re enjoying that. As a result of that, and sort of related to that, I’ve had the benefit of working for an international non-for-profit over the past few years. Most recently, I’ve moved into executive leadership coaching. I’m now working with leaders on how and where they show up in the workplace, which is very exciting.

    Joseph: I also know that you are a mother of two young boys. How do you go about balancing that with starting a new coaching practice?

    Maura: [03:58] They are a handful, 4 and 6 years old. We do have help. I wouldn’t be able to do this without our wonderful nanny who’s been with us for a few years. One of the benefits of coaching for me, and the reason I made the transition, is to spend more time with them. Being able to spend time with them in the afternoons, and have special time together has made a big difference. Even just the last few months in our relationship, which have been great.

    Joseph: I’m also, as you know, a career consultant. I know that since moving into working for myself, it has definitely been helpful as a parent. I wouldn’t have it any other way. It definitely offers you some flexibility that you wouldn’t necessarily get if you were in a traditional full-time, corporate role. As I know, you and I have both been in the past.

    You haven’t always been an executive coach, and I do want to come back to that toward the end to explore your journey into coaching. But could we just go back and talk a little bit about some of the major transitions that you’ve had in your life? We’re going to cover some major geographical transitions, some functional and role changes that you’ve experienced. But I’d love to just go back in time and talk about really the beginning part of your career. As I understand it, you did your undergraduate studies at the University of Pennsylvania. What were you studying at the time and what were your initial career plans?

    Maura: [05:21] I was at Penn. I was an Anthropology, major; African studies, minor. I pursued that because I loved people. I mean to put it very simply, I loved connecting with people and understanding more about their systems and the dynamics between them, intra- and inter-system connections and dynamics. And so, I was able to pursue that in my studies. I did know at the time that I didn’t want to be an anthropologist sort of an academic professionally. So, that opened the door to what’s next.

    I had this incredible study abroad experience as part of my African studies minor where I was able to spend almost four months in South Africa in an immersion program. We had four homestays. We learned Xhosa through an intensive language study. I found myself in environments that were completely foreign to me and absolutely loved it. I wasn’t sure exactly what I wanted to do after undergrad, but I knew I wanted to sort of replicate that experience in some way.

    Joseph: Now, you posted on LinkedIn last month, which reminded me of you and the work that you’re doing, that you said that one of your top priorities when you were graduating from Penn was to get a job overseas. Why was that so important to you?

    Maura: [06:40] It all started with that experience studying abroad. I can’t sort of thank the people that were involved in that enough. I grew up in South Jersey. I went to school 20 minutes from home, and very supportive family, and really wonderful environments. I wanted to experience a diverse setting, an environment that was different from that in which I grew up. I was able to do that in my undergrad studies. Wanted to do that again when I graduated. And so, I applied for programs and jobs that were in really kind of remote places. Places you wouldn’t think of necessarily.

    Joseph: Could you give a sampling of a few of the places you were thinking about going to?

    Maura: [07:25] Mexico was probably the closest place. I was looking at Peru. I was looking at Vietnam. My two job offers — actually, I only had two in the end. It came down to teaching in Ulan Bator in Mongolia and becoming an HR recruiter in Doha, Qatar. And so, that’s how I ended up in Doha.

    Joseph: How did you make the decision to go to Qatar over Mongolia? What was the main motivation there? If you can think back that far. I know this is a while back.

    Maura: [07:56] For me, it came down to the job description itself. It came down to the role that I was doing. I was looking not just for what that was going to be in the moment, but something that would put me in a position that I could sort of leverage that into something, at a later time, that was more a longer trajectory that I was interested in pursuing professionally.

    So, it was teaching English in Ulan Bator. Very exciting, huge geographic area. I mean there’s so much to do in Mongolia. Doha, Qatar itself, I should say is much smaller. I was moving at the time into an HR role, which I think for myself and my interest gave me kind of a bigger platform that I could then use to springboard into something else in the future.

    Joseph: Now, I’ve never been to Qatar myself, Maura. I know it’s been in the news a lot lately with the World Cup. I have hosted a webinar for some execs out there. But I don’t know what life is like there on the ground. Could you give me a glimpse into what daily life was like for you there, as someone in her early 20s who had just moved there from the United States?

    Maura: [09:04] Well, the country itself is only about 2 or 3% Qatari. Not sure exactly the latest numbers, but it’s 98 to 97%, at the time at least when I was there, foreign nationals. There are people from all over the world that go to Doha to work.

    I was moving into a position working for a construction management firm. We had staff from all over the Middle East, from Australia, from Malaysia, from Canada, from the United States, from the U.K., from Ireland. I mean, all over the world. For in terms of the people that were based in the office, which I was, that was a smaller percentage of staff. Because most of our employees were actually out on construction sites and project sites. So, for those who are in the office every day, I was, myself, the youngest by at least 10 years. I was the only woman who wasn’t a secretary in a secretarial position. I was the only White person. I was the only native English speaker. And, I was the newest person to arrive to the office. Everyone else had been there for at least a few months.

    It was an incredibly intense, intimidating environment. The people there were very kind, very nice, for the most part. But it was a lot it was a huge transition. On a personal level, I didn’t know anyone when I moved to Doha. I’d gotten the job in the U.S., and was on a plane within two weeks of my job interview. I [knew] a friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing, had one tenuous connection over Facebook that ended up kind of connecting me into a whole social network that I became friends with. But when I first landed, and for a few weeks, I was completely on my own. So, it was very intense.

    Joseph: We are, coincidentally, we didn’t plan it this way. But we’re recording this on International Women’s Day.

    Maura: [11:03] That’s true.

    Joseph: You mentioned that you were the only female in the office who was in a non-secretarial role, one of the youngest, clearly someone who was an outlier and a minority in so many ways, age, race. What was that like for you in the office on a day-to-day basis? Did you think about it? Did it manifest in any way? Did it affect you? If so, how?

    Maura: [11:25] It did certainly manifest. There are also cultural differences, which I came across, I mean continuously throughout my time there. I think the biggest thing that I had to figure out in that setting was, how do I find my voice? I would say find my feet, but it really became, how do I find my voice? As a woman who came from a family and a culture of strong women, that supports women, wants women to flourish and do well. Not everyone that I was with in that environment shared that sentiment. I, myself, experienced harassment, and inappropriate comments, and managers who didn’t want to support women or kind of thought women had a place that was different than the office, and told me as much. Told me that I would have a ceiling that was very low because I would have to have children someday, and that wasn’t very far off.

    Not only did I have to find my voice and stand up for myself, I also found that as I did that, other women both in the office and out on the project sites, came to me for support in dealing with the kind of situations that they were facing themselves. I became an advocate for them as well. To the extent where I ended up moving to the Dubai office. I actually ended up putting together an anti-harassment training, which I delivered across the region to other regional offices across the UAE, Qatar, and also Bahrain. That became a key part of the work that I created for myself in that role, and what I wanted to kind of leave behind.

    Joseph: Very interesting. Sometimes, I think about this, Maura. Because this is 2023, and you kind of hoped that we’ve made some progress in terms of gender equality and women being able to have the same opportunities in the workplace. Again, I’m making some broad generalizations here, but I’m assuming that they’re in a more patriarchal environment. That no matter what you do, it’s kind of hard to get ahead. Would you say that’s a fair characterization or not?

    Maura: [13:37] I don’t disagree. I would certainly say that women are seen very differently in patriarchal societies through the lens of those who hold on to that view because it’s not just a society as a whole. We all know people who see life in that through that lens, and women are seen differently. It manifests and kind of shows up in the way that they’re spoken to and the expectations that are put on them. Opportunities are not seen to be connected to women in the same way as they are with men. It was a very bizarre experience to have that in 2008 to 2010, not that long ago.

    I found myself at the age of 22, educating middle-aged men as to the art of what’s possible for women because I grew up with very strong female role models, including my mother who worked and raised four children. And, these men telling me, “Well, enjoy it while it lasts because in a not too distant future, you’re going to have to get married and have kids. And then, your career will be over,” was not my story. I found it important that they knew that, and that they understood that expectations for women don’t have to be different than they do for men certainly.

    Joseph: I just got back from Pakistan just last week. I was out there for a few days hosting some workshops and I did have a conversation with a woman out there who was talking to me about the gender dynamics there. Again, broadly generalizing a slightly more patriarchal society, just the challenges that still exist right now and it’s hard to navigate it.

    As someone myself, who is American, when I go into a different culture, sometimes I struggle with how much to voice my views on how things could be versus just the way that it’s been accepted in whatever society I’m in. I struggle with that sometimes. How did you manage that? Like balancing your opinions versus the societal norms in a very different part of the world.

    Maura: [15:45] I think what I did was not try to project. The big exception being a straight-up harassment case because I did deal with those. That’s, of course, inappropriate. My opinion is that that’s inappropriate in any culture and regardless of gender. But with that being the exception, I mean I tried to explain to people what my views were for myself. Rather than say, “Hey, your expectations for yourself as a woman in this culture are lower than they should be.” Or, “Your expectations for your wife are lower than they should be.” It wasn’t a judgment about others. It was just to say, “Look. This is what I expect for myself, and I know I can do it because I’ve seen other people do it.” So, trying to kind of raise that ceiling through the stories about myself and my own narrative rather than judging others.

    Joseph: I’m going to shift gears here a little bit. I want to talk about your transition. I know this is just one of the many that we’re going to cover today. So, you’re working in this firm in Qatar, and you’re working in HR. What triggered you to move to London after that? Can you remember what your motivation was in making that move?

    Maura: [17:10] I can. I’m married to him now.

    Joseph: That is often the reason why people make international moves.

    Maura: [17:18] That was very professional and sort of personal driven by me. I ended up, as I said, I didn’t know anyone when I got there. I ended up meeting this great group of people. One of whom I started dating. He got into a Master’s Program in London and said, “Do you want to come with me?” I said, “Sure. I’ll go. I speak English,” which was a big mistake because the English language in the U.K. is very different from American English. I managed to get a Visa for myself, a work Visa, while I was still in Dubai. And then, I moved from there to the U.K. with my work Visa, but with no job.

    Joseph: I see. This was 2010. Is that right?

    Maura: [17:54] Yes.

    Joseph: But I guess the Visa restrictions were not quite as well restrictive at the time.

    Maura: [17:59] When you’re applying for a job in another country — and I think this is true in most countries. You either need your own Visa, which has a work status, or you need to be sponsored by an organization. Being able to get that U.K. work Visa in Dubai meant that I was applying for jobs in London with the Visa. So, I didn’t need the company sponsorship, which just helped to be honest.

    Joseph: Can you remember how it felt when you landed in London back in a predominantly English-speaking country? That is, I guess, at least for all intents and purposes, as different as it can get from a place like Dubai, or Qatar, or Doha.

    Maura: [18:40] I still say this: it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I thought moving to London would be easy for all the reasons that you would assume. It’s incredibly bureaucratic. I wasn’t at the time a British national. We luckily had a family connection, and so we’re able to kind of get an address. Even just getting a cell phone, which you need to apply for jobs because they need to be able to call you, was really actually very challenging.

    Joseph: Yeah. It is tricky.

    Maura: [19:12] As much as there wasn’t a language barrier, it was much more bureaucratic, which I found challenging.

    Joseph: So, you do land in London, you do finally manage to get a mobile phone, and a bank account and those kinds of things you need to get your life started there.

    Maura: [19:24] Exactly.

    Joseph: You move to ERM, environmental resources management, and are still working in HR. Could you explain what your trajectory was there? And then, ultimately, what triggered you to then decide to pursue your MBA?

    Maura: [19:40] So, the challenge in working in HR, and then moving to a different country, is that there’s an expectation when you’re working with personnel that you understand employment law, which I didn’t and still really don’t in the U.K. However, ERM had this great position open which was in the international HR team. So, in their global HR team. Where I was able to work on more strategy-related projects, and I fell into learning and development, which I loved. Always on a global scale, supporting the staff around the world. That worked out really well that I was still applying my HR skill set, and the work that I’d done previously, but on a global scale. I was able to sort of overcome the lack of local employment law issue in that way.

    As I kind of really got into that work more, I identified that my area of interest was, is/was, the overlap between business and culture. Obviously, I had a degree in culture anthropology. I’ve lived and worked in, at the time it was five, now, it’s almost 10 countries. I had done the HR work, kind of working with people across different cultures. On the business side, I’d worked for these international organizations. But I felt that I wanted to really bolster my business acumen to more to really round out that side of things. That’s where the MBA came in. To give me kind of a stronger business skill set, that business knowledge, if you will.

    Joseph: This was an MBA at the Cambridge Judge Business School, which is where you and I first crossed paths.

    Maura: [21:11] Yes.

    Joseph: It must have been early 2015, or something like that.

    Maura: [21:16] Yeah, that’s right.

    Joseph: I guess eight years ago. During that time, you made another shift, and this is oftentimes, the motivation in pursuing an MBA is to make a bit of a pivot. Now, in this case, you made a pivot into the management consulting world, which is not an easy pivot to make. It’s a very esteemed sector. Can you explain how you managed to go from working in HR and learning and development, and then landing a pretty high-profile management consulting role at Deutsche Bank in financial services?

    Maura: [21:50] I really wanted to round out my professional experience and expertise. I did use the MBA as a pivot opportunity, exactly as you said, and was able to find through one of the recruitment events that business schools often host.

    A management consulting group that was actually internal to the organization — so Deutsche Bank has an internal management consulting arm, which is a very German model. There are a number of companies that do this. They have a slightly different mindset and approach to the more externally facing management consultancies. I ended up connecting with this group that was really open to people of diverse backgrounds and experiences and saw the value in getting people’s kind of perspectives that weren’t strictly from financial services. I think that’s key to any transition, is kind of being able to find people that are attracted to diversity and attracted to maybe a different skill set and see the benefit of that in the work that they’re doing.

    And so, GMC group management consulting did that. I found a home there and a team that was really wonderful, and I had an incredible experience there.

    Joseph: How would you describe the major differences between working and consulting, versus your prior roles?

    Maura: [23:06] Working in consulting was a painfully steep learning curve, I have to say. I moved from talking with people around the world and developing training that I delivered over webinars to staff across different countries, to sitting in an office for 10 hours a day with no windows in front of a laptop, crunching client data. Using Excel skills that were way beyond my capabilities at the time, and was completely thrown in the deep end. Very high pressure, very high profile, hyperintense, and just completely different with a life that revolved around Excel and PowerPoint. More than kind of the people connection, which I was so used to in the past.

    Part of my job in the Gulf was driving around the different construction sites, or even flying out to different offices and different countries, and meeting with people and hearing about their issues. My first 10 months at Deutsche Bank, I was sitting as I said in a windowless room in front of Excel with four other consultants. That’s kind of where we were, which is when you think of consulting, that’s often what you think of. Not all of my projects were like that, but it was a complete 180.

    Joseph: I’m going to read between the lines here a little bit, and correct me if I’m wrong with it. It sounds like you were perhaps more in your natural element in the HR world perhaps because it was your first set of roles, and perhaps because you’d always had an interest in the human side of things. And then, you go into this role, which is very different. As you mentioned, focused around PowerPoint and Excel.

    How do you reconcile this situation? Where sometimes, you’re in a role where you’re learning a lot, but maybe you don’t feel like it is quite you. How did you think about how long to continue doing that? Because sometimes, what happens is people go into these roles and they do it because they want to learn something, or they want to “do their time.” Especially in consulting. How did you think about how long to stay in that world? Or was that even part of your thought process at the time?

    Maura: [25:22] It absolutely was. Part of my frustration with HR was people see it as really soft. Or sort of out of touch with the operations or the business side of things, which is why I wanted to kind of connect in that business and culture, those two pieces together, and therefore, I needed more of that business side. I sort of jumped in the deep end in that sense and kind of went to a place that was much, much more focused on the business than the people at least in so many ways, and I anticipated that. And so, I went into a thinking, “This is not forever.” On those really long, really painful days, I thought, “This isn’t forever, right?”

    I sort of thought that three years seems to be this kind of magic number that I hold in my head when I make transitions. “If I could do this for three years, that’s fine.” Sometimes, it’s two, and sometimes, it’s five. But I sort of hold three years as some type of number for me, which feels manageable and comfortable because it’s a commitment, but it’s not a life sentence. Whatever that number is for others, even if again it doesn’t work out that way. But just to kind of go into something thinking, “Okay. Well, what am I comfortable with? What can I commit to? So, that I’m fully present to what I’m doing and able to really kind of make the most of this time, but I’m not also overwhelmed by, ‘Oh my gosh! I’m stuck here.'” That’s how I looked at it. I ended up staying at Deutsche Bank for almost five years. It did work out quite well for me.

    Joseph: You would eventually move back to the U.S., which is where you’re now based. How did you come to that decision to move back to the U.S. after going on this incredible journey through the Gulf region, and then to Europe? What triggered you to make that move?

    Maura: [27:16] While I was at Deutsche Bank, we had two children, our two boys, and had outgrown our flat in London and needed to make a decision of, “Okay. We need to move out. Do we move out to a bigger place in the U.K., or do we move to the U.S.?” For family reasons, for personal reasons, we decided to move to the U.S. I struggled sometimes to say, “Is it back to the U.S. or just to the U.S.?” Because our professional lives, I made my entire professional life, at that point, had been overseas. So, we made the decision to come back here, as I said, just outside of Washington, D.C., which is a very international place which gives me a lot of solace and joy. We have neighbors and friends from all over the world, and also who have a lot of global experience which kind of eased that transition a bit.

    Joseph: I’ve always wondered about what it’s like to go — I know you said you’d never worked in the U.S. So it was moving to the U.S. At the same time, you’d spent your whole childhood and college years in the United States. What’s it been like for you? Because this was in 2020, right? So you’re coming up to, I guess, three years back in the U.S. Is that correct?

    Maura: [28:31] Yeah. We moved in late 2019. It was actually six months before COVID lockdown, which is a weird time to transition to a new place.

    Joseph: I’ll bet.

    Maura: [28:40] I found that people assumed that we were from here. I mean, we are from here. I’m from New Jersey. But people ask you, “Where are you from?” And you say, “New Jersey,” and they say, “Okay.” Then, they’ve kind of fill in the blanks and assume that that’s been your life, and they don’t understand. They don’t know that I identify as from New Jersey, and so much more than that. It was confusing coming back here and talking with my sister about Roth IRAs, and things like that that my younger sister had more experience with this than I did. Getting frustrated with utilities, and things in my neighbor saying, “What do you mean you don’t understand how it works here?”

    There are sort of assumptions that because I sound like I do and I look like I do, is that I understood how things work here and I have that lived experience. But, actually, I didn’t necessarily have that lived experience of working professionally in the United States. That’s been a very odd transition, and it’s very easy for us to compare life here to life elsewhere. Primarily, in the U.K. The D.C. area is a great place to be, and we’re enjoying that as well. It’s wonderful to be closer to family. That’s been wonderful.

    Joseph: So, you go back to the United States, and then you shift into what I’m going to describe — I’m going to put a label on this, but into more of the “mission-driven world.” Oftentimes, when I speak with people who have spent time working in the for-profit corporate world, as you had up until this point, I know that people can sometimes be drawn to more mission-driven organizations. I’m curious what your motivation was in shifting into a more mission-driven world? Then, we can talk a little bit about the realities of that world.

    Maura: [30:30] While I was at Deutsche Bank, there were a number of corruptions and scandals that were uncovered in the press. As I said, the management consulting group that I was part of was wonderful. The organization, as a whole, was not a place that I was always proud to say I worked when people ask. And so, that’s when I was then leaving, I wanted to find a place and land somewhere where I was really proud to say that I worked there. The D.C. area has a lot of international organizations, international [not-for]-profits. I had the benefit of looking around and saying, “Okay. Well, what are the organizations that I would be proud to work for?” And so, as you say that mission-driven component was very much important to me and a key part of what I was looking for in that next step.

    Joseph: What were your perceptions of working in the more mission-driven world, and then what was the reality that you experienced?

    Maura: [31:23] I thought it would be everyone sort of gung-ho supporting a cause that we all believed in. I ended up at the International Baccalaureate. The global component of my work up to that point was still part of the work that I was doing as the head of global employee experience. I loved the work. It very much was gung-ho. We’re all supporting this cause: creating education to make a more peaceful world. I mean, what a mission! The people that truly are passionate about it. That was a wonderful place to be.

    There’s the flip side to it. People that are so passionate and so mission-driven expect a lot of themselves. One thing that I learned is that there’s a lot of burnouts that happen in mission-driven organizations. Not that there isn’t elsewhere, but certainly more than I expected. I thought, “Well, I’ll be leaving behind these crazy hours at Deutsche Bank,” and that wasn’t the case. I found in the mission-driven, not-for-profit world, people are very much working their tails off and some people are really burning out. In part, because they are so passionate. I was not expecting that.

    Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to discuss with you before we wrap up by talking about your recent shift into the corporate world are some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your interesting career journey. Something you said in your LinkedIn post was that, “Our greatest learning often happens outside our comfort zone where we’re forced to grapple with the uncomfortable, the challenging, and the uncertain.” What’s something that you learned by working in those environments where you were a complete outlier?

    Maura: [33:10] I would say the key thing is being really aware of yourself, who you are, what you need, and being able to advocate for yourself is critical. That’s where I think became grounded in who I was out of necessity. That’s made a huge difference then in being able to kind of make other pivots because I know where I’m centered from. I know where I’m sort of moving from at my core.

    Joseph: Speaking of which, what is something that you wished you had known about making major career changes and making major geographical moves that you now know?

    Maura: [34:09] I wish I had known that I would be able to tell a convincing story that people would actually be attracted to that. So often, I was told that there should be some kind of worry or concern, a fear of making a change, or reasons, focus on the reasons to not do it. What I found was I was always able to find opportunities where that was an advantage. I wish that I had known that that was going to be the case. To not kind of move from a place of worry, but actually to move from a place of opportunity.

    Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you’re doing now. I know that you’ve recently made the move into the coaching world. Can you explain what that has been like for you to move from working as a full-time employee to starting your own coaching practice?

    Maura: [35:05] For myself, to be able to explain that, and for other people to kind of follow, those shifts is to have sort of a common thread throughout that. For me, the connection throughout all the changes I’ve made is that I am motivated by the ability to empower others in their work. That’s what gets me out of bed. What I’ve done most recently is I’ve moved from empowering others in their work from a kind of organizational level, working in employee experience at a global organization, to empowering others in their work on a one-to-one level as an executive leadership coach.

    What I’m finding is that the frustrations that I’ve had with organizations in the past, that change is too slow. It takes too much time for organizations to really make meaningful transitions, et cetera. That is all wiped away when you’re working one-to-one with individuals. There’s change happening you know within 45 minutes, within a single call. Let alone over six months or so. It’s been incredibly exciting, energizing, gratifying, and humbling to be witness to that change and to be part of people’s journeys as they’re figuring out where they want to show up, and how they want to show up and to support them as they grow and transform.

    Joseph: What have you found challenging about this specific transition?

    Maura: [36:31] It can be a bit lonely. I’m a very collaborative person. I love working with teams. Being a one-to-one exec leadership coach is a bit lonely. I’m starting to expand that and work with teams and do more consulting work, which is great. That’s been kind of the biggest challenge so far.

    Joseph: When we were prepping for this call, I remember you mentioning something about this concept of a metamorphosis related to a caterpillar going to a butterfly. You mentioned this concept of “bug soup.” Could you just remind me, what’s that all about, and how has that related to your journey, into coaching?

    Maura: [37:09] I started this transition back in August, September last year, which is around the same time in the northeast of the United States when Monarch butterfly caterpillars go into their chrysalis. We happened to have a caterpillar and we’re doing this with my kids as an activity. We’re doing a lot of research into what’s happening, so we can explain to them. I learned at that time that actually when a chrysalis is formed, if you were to open it up prematurely, in the middle of the metamorphosis, it’s actually a green goo that you’d find inside. What happens is the caterpillar breaks down all of its — okay, I’m not a scientist, that’s my disclaimer. It breaks down kind of all of its softer parts, into this bug soup, and then, it reconstructs into the butterfly. And then, when it’s ready, it opens and we know what happens after that.

    And so, I was really struck as I was going through this process of establishing my own coaching practice by also learning about this concept of bug soup. I thought, “Well, that’s what’s happening to me.” I’m in the middle of this bug soup, where I sort of feel like I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m stepping out on my own, and I’m moving from the comfort and security of a pay check in an organization and a team to being completely on my own and building a business. I’m bug soup.

    I think the lesson there for me is that kind of acknowledging that it was — as I had an MBA professor said, the messy middle, that that’s okay. That’s part of the process. And, sort of trusting that I’ll come out on the other side in some form or another. Hopefully, a good one that can fly. But that was comforting for me at the time to kind of know that even animals go through, our bugs, go through this and I wasn’t so different in that sense.

    Joseph: Speaking of this metamorphosis, the final question for you, Maura. What’s something you’ve learned about yourself as you’ve made this shift from the corporate world into starting your independent executive coaching practice?

    Maura: [39:15] A key lesson for me has been, and continues to be, that I can and do every day author my own story. It’s something that I talk with my coaching clients about in terms of what’s your story and the power of stories. So often, we tell ourselves certain things, we tell ourselves stories. There’s a narrative in our heads, and that is so powerful in terms of shaping who we are and how we show up. We’re talking about career transitions.

    Everyone has the power to author their own story. I talked to my coaching clients about this. The power of stories that we tell ourselves, the narratives in our heads, we all have it. The stories that we create, that we narrate, both looking back in terms of what we want to glean from where we’ve come from and also looking forward, in terms of where we want to go and how we’re going to get there are instrumental in shaping us as personal, as individuals and as professionals.

    I think there are kind of three key things in terms of making those transitions successful. The self-awareness and reflection to actually consider what are your skills, what are the gaps, what do you desire, and what’s the rationale for that. There’s a need to understand what others need. Whether it’s an individual or a system. How can you fit into their needs? How can you kind of bring, as I sort of mentioned as an example, the human side to the consulting work? How is that going to benefit that organization, as an example? And then, the third is to be able to tell a convincing and authentic story. If you can do those three things, that’s it. That’s the magic. Everyone can do that. I truly believe it. Everyone has the ability to do this.

    Joseph: Well, if people are interested in learning more about what you do, or if they need some help with figuring out the human side of their own career story and crafting their own narrative, where can people go to learn more about you or the coaching work that you do?

    Maura: [41:21] LinkedIn. I’m Maura Connell Lightfoot. My organization is MCL Coaching and Consulting. Anyone can find me on LinkedIn, or at mclcoaching.org.

    Joseph: Thank you so much, Maura, for reconnecting. It’s nice to speak with you again after all these years, and telling us more about your life and the Gulf, your various InterContinental moves, how you’ve overcome the challenges along the way, and also some of your own reflections as you have continued to evolve your own career. So, best of luck with your executive coaching endeavors, authoring this chapter of your own career story and also empowering others to do the same in their professional lives. Thanks for coming on to the show.

    Maura: [42:02] Thank you so much, Joseph. It’s been my pleasure. I appreciate it.

    Maura: [03:01] Thank you so much for having me, Joseph. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m so delighted to reconnect in this way, and really looking forward to the conversation.

    Joseph: Well, let’s get started by getting a glimpse into what’s happening for you at this particular moment. What are you focused on right now in your career and also your life?

    Maura: [03:19] I’m currently based in Bethesda, Maryland, which is just outside of Washington, D.C. It’s wonderful because it’s rich in culture. It’s an incredibly diverse place to live, and so we’re enjoying that. As a result of that, and sort of related to that, I’ve had the benefit of working for an international non-for-profit over the past few years. Most recently, I’ve moved into executive leadership coaching. I’m now working with leaders on how and where they show up in the workplace, which is very exciting.

    Joseph: I also know that you are a mother of two young boys. How do you go about balancing that with starting a new coaching practice?

    Maura: [03:58] They are a handful, 4 and 6 years old. We do have help. I wouldn’t be able to do this without our wonderful nanny who’s been with us for a few years. One of the benefits of coaching for me, and the reason I made the transition, is to spend more time with them. Being able to spend time with them in the afternoons, and have special time together has made a big difference. Even just the last few months in our relationship, which have been great.

    Joseph: I’m also, as you know, a career consultant. I know that since moving into working for myself, it has definitely been helpful as a parent. I wouldn’t have it any other way. It definitely offers you some flexibility that you wouldn’t necessarily get if you were in a traditional full-time, corporate role. As I know, you and I have both been in the past.

    You haven’t always been an executive coach, and I do want to come back to that toward the end to explore your journey into coaching. But could we just go back and talk a little bit about some of the major transitions that you’ve had in your life? We’re going to cover some major geographical transitions, some functional and role changes that you’ve experienced. But I’d love to just go back in time and talk about really the beginning part of your career. As I understand it, you did your undergraduate studies at the University of Pennsylvania. What were you studying at the time and what were your initial career plans?

    Maura: [05:21] I was at Penn. I was an Anthropology, major; African studies, minor. I pursued that because I loved people. I mean to put it very simply, I loved connecting with people and understanding more about their systems and the dynamics between them, intra- and inter-system connections and dynamics. And so, I was able to pursue that in my studies. I did know at the time that I didn’t want to be an anthropologist sort of an academic professionally. So, that opened the door to what’s next.

    I had this incredible study abroad experience as part of my African studies minor where I was able to spend almost four months in South Africa in an immersion program. We had four homestays. We learned Xhosa through an intensive language study. I found myself in environments that were completely foreign to me and absolutely loved it. I wasn’t sure exactly what I wanted to do after undergrad, but I knew I wanted to sort of replicate that experience in some way.

    Joseph: Now, you posted on LinkedIn last month, which reminded me of you and the work that you’re doing, that you said that one of your top priorities when you were graduating from Penn was to get a job overseas. Why was that so important to you?

    Maura: [06:40] It all started with that experience studying abroad. I can’t sort of thank the people that were involved in that enough. I grew up in South Jersey. I went to school 20 minutes from home, and very supportive family, and really wonderful environments. I wanted to experience a diverse setting, an environment that was different from that in which I grew up. I was able to do that in my undergrad studies. Wanted to do that again when I graduated. And so, I applied for programs and jobs that were in really kind of remote places. Places you wouldn’t think of necessarily.

    Joseph: Could you give a sampling of a few of the places you were thinking about going to?

    Maura: [07:25] Mexico was probably the closest place. I was looking at Peru. I was looking at Vietnam. My two job offers — actually, I only had two in the end. It came down to teaching in Ulan Bator in Mongolia and becoming an HR recruiter in Doha, Qatar. And so, that’s how I ended up in Doha.

    Joseph: How did you make the decision to go to Qatar over Mongolia? What was the main motivation there? If you can think back that far. I know this is a while back.

    Maura: [07:56] For me, it came down to the job description itself. It came down to the role that I was doing. I was looking not just for what that was going to be in the moment, but something that would put me in a position that I could sort of leverage that into something, at a later time, that was more a longer trajectory that I was interested in pursuing professionally.

    So, it was teaching English in Ulan Bator. Very exciting, huge geographic area. I mean there’s so much to do in Mongolia. Doha, Qatar itself, I should say is much smaller. I was moving at the time into an HR role, which I think for myself and my interest gave me kind of a bigger platform that I could then use to springboard into something else in the future.

    Joseph: Now, I’ve never been to Qatar myself, Maura. I know it’s been in the news a lot lately with the World Cup. I have hosted a webinar for some execs out there. But I don’t know what life is like there on the ground. Could you give me a glimpse into what daily life was like for you there, as someone in her early 20s who had just moved there from the United States?

    Maura: [09:04] Well, the country itself is only about 2 or 3% Qatari. Not sure exactly the latest numbers, but it’s 98 to 97%, at the time at least when I was there, foreign nationals. There are people from all over the world that go to Doha to work.

    I was moving into a position working for a construction management firm. We had staff from all over the Middle East, from Australia, from Malaysia, from Canada, from the United States, from the U.K., from Ireland. I mean, all over the world. For in terms of the people that were based in the office, which I was, that was a smaller percentage of staff. Because most of our employees were actually out on construction sites and project sites. So, for those who are in the office every day, I was, myself, the youngest by at least 10 years. I was the only woman who wasn’t a secretary in a secretarial position. I was the only White person. I was the only native English speaker. And, I was the newest person to arrive to the office. Everyone else had been there for at least a few months.

    It was an incredibly intense, intimidating environment. The people there were very kind, very nice, for the most part. But it was a lot it was a huge transition. On a personal level, I didn’t know anyone when I moved to Doha. I’d gotten the job in the U.S., and was on a plane within two weeks of my job interview. I [knew] a friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing, had one tenuous connection over Facebook that ended up kind of connecting me into a whole social network that I became friends with. But when I first landed, and for a few weeks, I was completely on my own. So, it was very intense.

    Joseph: We are, coincidentally, we didn’t plan it this way. But we’re recording this on International Women’s Day.

    Maura: [11:03] That’s true.

    Joseph: You mentioned that you were the only female in the office who was in a non-secretarial role, one of the youngest, clearly someone who was an outlier and a minority in so many ways, age, race. What was that like for you in the office on a day-to-day basis? Did you think about it? Did it manifest in any way? Did it affect you? If so, how?

    Maura: [11:25] It did certainly manifest. There are also cultural differences, which I came across, I mean continuously throughout my time there. I think the biggest thing that I had to figure out in that setting was, how do I find my voice? I would say find my feet, but it really became, how do I find my voice? As a woman who came from a family and a culture of strong women, that supports women, wants women to flourish and do well. Not everyone that I was with in that environment shared that sentiment. I, myself, experienced harassment, and inappropriate comments, and managers who didn’t want to support women or kind of thought women had a place that was different than the office, and told me as much. Told me that I would have a ceiling that was very low because I would have to have children someday, and that wasn’t very far off.

    Not only did I have to find my voice and stand up for myself, I also found that as I did that, other women both in the office and out on the project sites, came to me for support in dealing with the kind of situations that they were facing themselves. I became an advocate for them as well. To the extent where I ended up moving to the Dubai office. I actually ended up putting together an anti-harassment training, which I delivered across the region to other regional offices across the UAE, Qatar, and also Bahrain. That became a key part of the work that I created for myself in that role, and what I wanted to kind of leave behind.

    Joseph: Very interesting. Sometimes, I think about this, Maura. Because this is 2023, and you kind of hoped that we’ve made some progress in terms of gender equality and women being able to have the same opportunities in the workplace. Again, I’m making some broad generalizations here, but I’m assuming that they’re in a more patriarchal environment. That no matter what you do, it’s kind of hard to get ahead. Would you say that’s a fair characterization or not?

    Maura: [13:37] I don’t disagree. I would certainly say that women are seen very differently in patriarchal societies through the lens of those who hold on to that view because it’s not just a society as a whole. We all know people who see life in that through that lens, and women are seen differently. It manifests and kind of shows up in the way that they’re spoken to and the expectations that are put on them. Opportunities are not seen to be connected to women in the same way as they are with men. It was a very bizarre experience to have that in 2008 to 2010, not that long ago.

    I found myself at the age of 22, educating middle-aged men as to the art of what’s possible for women because I grew up with very strong female role models, including my mother who worked and raised four children. And, these men telling me, “Well, enjoy it while it lasts because in a not too distant future, you’re going to have to get married and have kids. And then, your career will be over,” was not my story. I found it important that they knew that, and that they understood that expectations for women don’t have to be different than they do for men certainly.

    Joseph: I just got back from Pakistan just last week. I was out there for a few days hosting some workshops and I did have a conversation with a woman out there who was talking to me about the gender dynamics there. Again, broadly generalizing a slightly more patriarchal society, just the challenges that still exist right now and it’s hard to navigate it.

    As someone myself, who is American, when I go into a different culture, sometimes I struggle with how much to voice my views on how things could be versus just the way that it’s been accepted in whatever society I’m in. I struggle with that sometimes. How did you manage that? Like balancing your opinions versus the societal norms in a very different part of the world.

    Maura: [15:45] I think what I did was not try to project. The big exception being a straight-up harassment case because I did deal with those. That’s, of course, inappropriate. My opinion is that that’s inappropriate in any culture and regardless of gender. But with that being the exception, I mean I tried to explain to people what my views were for myself. Rather than say, “Hey, your expectations for yourself as a woman in this culture are lower than they should be.” Or, “Your expectations for your wife are lower than they should be.” It wasn’t a judgment about others. It was just to say, “Look. This is what I expect for myself, and I know I can do it because I’ve seen other people do it.” So, trying to kind of raise that ceiling through the stories about myself and my own narrative rather than judging others.

    Joseph: I’m going to shift gears here a little bit. I want to talk about your transition. I know this is just one of the many that we’re going to cover today. So, you’re working in this firm in Qatar, and you’re working in HR. What triggered you to move to London after that? Can you remember what your motivation was in making that move?

    Maura: [17:10] I can. I’m married to him now.

    Joseph: That is often the reason why people make international moves.

    Maura: [17:18] That was very professional and sort of personal driven by me. I ended up, as I said, I didn’t know anyone when I got there. I ended up meeting this great group of people. One of whom I started dating. He got into a Master’s Program in London and said, “Do you want to come with me?” I said, “Sure. I’ll go. I speak English,” which was a big mistake because the English language in the U.K. is very different from American English. I managed to get a Visa for myself, a work Visa, while I was still in Dubai. And then, I moved from there to the U.K. with my work Visa, but with no job.

    Joseph: I see. This was 2010. Is that right?

    Maura: [17:54] Yes.

    Joseph: But I guess the Visa restrictions were not quite as well restrictive at the time.

    Maura: [17:59] When you’re applying for a job in another country — and I think this is true in most countries. You either need your own Visa, which has a work status, or you need to be sponsored by an organization. Being able to get that U.K. work Visa in Dubai meant that I was applying for jobs in London with the Visa. So, I didn’t need the company sponsorship, which just helped to be honest.

    Joseph: Can you remember how it felt when you landed in London back in a predominantly English-speaking country? That is, I guess, at least for all intents and purposes, as different as it can get from a place like Dubai, or Qatar, or Doha.

    Maura: [18:40] I still say this: it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I thought moving to London would be easy for all the reasons that you would assume. It’s incredibly bureaucratic. I wasn’t at the time a British national. We luckily had a family connection, and so we’re able to kind of get an address. Even just getting a cell phone, which you need to apply for jobs because they need to be able to call you, was really actually very challenging.

    Joseph: Yeah. It is tricky.

    Maura: [19:12] As much as there wasn’t a language barrier, it was much more bureaucratic, which I found challenging.

    Joseph: So, you do land in London, you do finally manage to get a mobile phone, and a bank account and those kinds of things you need to get your life started there.

    Maura: [19:24] Exactly.

    Joseph: You move to ERM, environmental resources management, and are still working in HR. Could you explain what your trajectory was there? And then, ultimately, what triggered you to then decide to pursue your MBA?

    Maura: [19:40] So, the challenge in working in HR, and then moving to a different country, is that there’s an expectation when you’re working with personnel that you understand employment law, which I didn’t and still really don’t in the U.K. However, ERM had this great position open which was in the international HR team. So, in their global HR team. Where I was able to work on more strategy-related projects, and I fell into learning and development, which I loved. Always on a global scale, supporting the staff around the world. That worked out really well that I was still applying my HR skill set, and the work that I’d done previously, but on a global scale. I was able to sort of overcome the lack of local employment law issue in that way.

    As I kind of really got into that work more, I identified that my area of interest was, is/was, the overlap between business and culture. Obviously, I had a degree in culture anthropology. I’ve lived and worked in, at the time it was five, now, it’s almost 10 countries. I had done the HR work, kind of working with people across different cultures. On the business side, I’d worked for these international organizations. But I felt that I wanted to really bolster my business acumen to more to really round out that side of things. That’s where the MBA came in. To give me kind of a stronger business skill set, that business knowledge, if you will.

    Joseph: This was an MBA at the Cambridge Judge Business School, which is where you and I first crossed paths.

    Maura: [21:11] Yes.

    Joseph: It must have been early 2015, or something like that.

    Maura: [21:16] Yeah, that’s right.

    Joseph: I guess eight years ago. During that time, you made another shift, and this is oftentimes, the motivation in pursuing an MBA is to make a bit of a pivot. Now, in this case, you made a pivot into the management consulting world, which is not an easy pivot to make. It’s a very esteemed sector. Can you explain how you managed to go from working in HR and learning and development, and then landing a pretty high-profile management consulting role at Deutsche Bank in financial services?

    Maura: [21:50] I really wanted to round out my professional experience and expertise. I did use the MBA as a pivot opportunity, exactly as you said, and was able to find through one of the recruitment events that business schools often host.

    A management consulting group that was actually internal to the organization — so Deutsche Bank has an internal management consulting arm, which is a very German model. There are a number of companies that do this. They have a slightly different mindset and approach to the more externally facing management consultancies. I ended up connecting with this group that was really open to people of diverse backgrounds and experiences and saw the value in getting people’s kind of perspectives that weren’t strictly from financial services. I think that’s key to any transition, is kind of being able to find people that are attracted to diversity and attracted to maybe a different skill set and see the benefit of that in the work that they’re doing.

    And so, GMC group management consulting did that. I found a home there and a team that was really wonderful, and I had an incredible experience there.

    Joseph: How would you describe the major differences between working and consulting, versus your prior roles?

    Maura: [23:06] Working in consulting was a painfully steep learning curve, I have to say. I moved from talking with people around the world and developing training that I delivered over webinars to staff across different countries, to sitting in an office for 10 hours a day with no windows in front of a laptop, crunching client data. Using Excel skills that were way beyond my capabilities at the time, and was completely thrown in the deep end. Very high pressure, very high profile, hyperintense, and just completely different with a life that revolved around Excel and PowerPoint. More than kind of the people connection, which I was so used to in the past.

    Part of my job in the Gulf was driving around the different construction sites, or even flying out to different offices and different countries, and meeting with people and hearing about their issues. My first 10 months at Deutsche Bank, I was sitting as I said in a windowless room in front of Excel with four other consultants. That’s kind of where we were, which is when you think of consulting, that’s often what you think of. Not all of my projects were like that, but it was a complete 180.

    Joseph: I’m going to read between the lines here a little bit, and correct me if I’m wrong with it. It sounds like you were perhaps more in your natural element in the HR world perhaps because it was your first set of roles, and perhaps because you’d always had an interest in the human side of things. And then, you go into this role, which is very different. As you mentioned, focused around PowerPoint and Excel.

    How do you reconcile this situation? Where sometimes, you’re in a role where you’re learning a lot, but maybe you don’t feel like it is quite you. How did you think about how long to continue doing that? Because sometimes, what happens is people go into these roles and they do it because they want to learn something, or they want to “do their time.” Especially in consulting. How did you think about how long to stay in that world? Or was that even part of your thought process at the time?

    Maura: [25:22] It absolutely was. Part of my frustration with HR was people see it as really soft. Or sort of out of touch with the operations or the business side of things, which is why I wanted to kind of connect in that business and culture, those two pieces together, and therefore, I needed more of that business side. I sort of jumped in the deep end in that sense and kind of went to a place that was much, much more focused on the business than the people at least in so many ways, and I anticipated that. And so, I went into a thinking, “This is not forever.” On those really long, really painful days, I thought, “This isn’t forever, right?”

    I sort of thought that three years seems to be this kind of magic number that I hold in my head when I make transitions. “If I could do this for three years, that’s fine.” Sometimes, it’s two, and sometimes, it’s five. But I sort of hold three years as some type of number for me, which feels manageable and comfortable because it’s a commitment, but it’s not a life sentence. Whatever that number is for others, even if again it doesn’t work out that way. But just to kind of go into something thinking, “Okay. Well, what am I comfortable with? What can I commit to? So, that I’m fully present to what I’m doing and able to really kind of make the most of this time, but I’m not also overwhelmed by, ‘Oh my gosh! I’m stuck here.'” That’s how I looked at it. I ended up staying at Deutsche Bank for almost five years. It did work out quite well for me.

    Joseph: You would eventually move back to the U.S., which is where you’re now based. How did you come to that decision to move back to the U.S. after going on this incredible journey through the Gulf region, and then to Europe? What triggered you to make that move?

    Maura: [27:16] While I was at Deutsche Bank, we had two children, our two boys, and had outgrown our flat in London and needed to make a decision of, “Okay. We need to move out. Do we move out to a bigger place in the U.K., or do we move to the U.S.?” For family reasons, for personal reasons, we decided to move to the U.S. I struggled sometimes to say, “Is it back to the U.S. or just to the U.S.?” Because our professional lives, I made my entire professional life, at that point, had been overseas. So, we made the decision to come back here, as I said, just outside of Washington, D.C., which is a very international place which gives me a lot of solace and joy. We have neighbors and friends from all over the world, and also who have a lot of global experience which kind of eased that transition a bit.

    Joseph: I’ve always wondered about what it’s like to go — I know you said you’d never worked in the U.S. So it was moving to the U.S. At the same time, you’d spent your whole childhood and college years in the United States. What’s it been like for you? Because this was in 2020, right? So you’re coming up to, I guess, three years back in the U.S. Is that correct?

    Maura: [28:31] Yeah. We moved in late 2019. It was actually six months before COVID lockdown, which is a weird time to transition to a new place.

    Joseph: I’ll bet.

    Maura: [28:40] I found that people assumed that we were from here. I mean, we are from here. I’m from New Jersey. But people ask you, “Where are you from?” And you say, “New Jersey,” and they say, “Okay.” Then, they’ve kind of fill in the blanks and assume that that’s been your life, and they don’t understand. They don’t know that I identify as from New Jersey, and so much more than that. It was confusing coming back here and talking with my sister about Roth IRAs, and things like that that my younger sister had more experience with this than I did. Getting frustrated with utilities, and things in my neighbor saying, “What do you mean you don’t understand how it works here?”

    There are sort of assumptions that because I sound like I do and I look like I do, is that I understood how things work here and I have that lived experience. But, actually, I didn’t necessarily have that lived experience of working professionally in the United States. That’s been a very odd transition, and it’s very easy for us to compare life here to life elsewhere. Primarily, in the U.K. The D.C. area is a great place to be, and we’re enjoying that as well. It’s wonderful to be closer to family. That’s been wonderful.

    Joseph: So, you go back to the United States, and then you shift into what I’m going to describe — I’m going to put a label on this, but into more of the “mission-driven world.” Oftentimes, when I speak with people who have spent time working in the for-profit corporate world, as you had up until this point, I know that people can sometimes be drawn to more mission-driven organizations. I’m curious what your motivation was in shifting into a more mission-driven world? Then, we can talk a little bit about the realities of that world.

    Maura: [30:30] While I was at Deutsche Bank, there were a number of corruptions and scandals that were uncovered in the press. As I said, the management consulting group that I was part of was wonderful. The organization, as a whole, was not a place that I was always proud to say I worked when people ask. And so, that’s when I was then leaving, I wanted to find a place and land somewhere where I was really proud to say that I worked there. The D.C. area has a lot of international organizations, international [not-for]-profits. I had the benefit of looking around and saying, “Okay. Well, what are the organizations that I would be proud to work for?” And so, as you say that mission-driven component was very much important to me and a key part of what I was looking for in that next step.

    Joseph: What were your perceptions of working in the more mission-driven world, and then what was the reality that you experienced?

    Maura: [31:23] I thought it would be everyone sort of gung-ho supporting a cause that we all believed in. I ended up at the International Baccalaureate. The global component of my work up to that point was still part of the work that I was doing as the head of global employee experience. I loved the work. It very much was gung-ho. We’re all supporting this cause: creating education to make a more peaceful world. I mean, what a mission! The people that truly are passionate about it. That was a wonderful place to be.

    There’s the flip side to it. People that are so passionate and so mission-driven expect a lot of themselves. One thing that I learned is that there’s a lot of burnouts that happen in mission-driven organizations. Not that there isn’t elsewhere, but certainly more than I expected. I thought, “Well, I’ll be leaving behind these crazy hours at Deutsche Bank,” and that wasn’t the case. I found in the mission-driven, not-for-profit world, people are very much working their tails off and some people are really burning out. In part, because they are so passionate. I was not expecting that.

    Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to discuss with you before we wrap up by talking about your recent shift into the corporate world are some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your interesting career journey. Something you said in your LinkedIn post was that, “Our greatest learning often happens outside our comfort zone where we’re forced to grapple with the uncomfortable, the challenging, and the uncertain.” What’s something that you learned by working in those environments where you were a complete outlier?

    Maura: [33:10] I would say the key thing is being really aware of yourself, who you are, what you need, and being able to advocate for yourself is critical. That’s where I think became grounded in who I was out of necessity. That’s made a huge difference then in being able to kind of make other pivots because I know where I’m centered from. I know where I’m sort of moving from at my core.

    Joseph: Speaking of which, what is something that you wished you had known about making major career changes and making major geographical moves that you now know?

    Maura: [34:09] I wish I had known that I would be able to tell a convincing story that people would actually be attracted to that. So often, I was told that there should be some kind of worry or concern, a fear of making a change, or reasons, focus on the reasons to not do it. What I found was I was always able to find opportunities where that was an advantage. I wish that I had known that that was going to be the case. To not kind of move from a place of worry, but actually to move from a place of opportunity.

    Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you’re doing now. I know that you’ve recently made the move into the coaching world. Can you explain what that has been like for you to move from working as a full-time employee to starting your own coaching practice?

    Maura: [35:05] For myself, to be able to explain that, and for other people to kind of follow, those shifts is to have sort of a common thread throughout that. For me, the connection throughout all the changes I’ve made is that I am motivated by the ability to empower others in their work. That’s what gets me out of bed. What I’ve done most recently is I’ve moved from empowering others in their work from a kind of organizational level, working in employee experience at a global organization, to empowering others in their work on a one-to-one level as an executive leadership coach.

    What I’m finding is that the frustrations that I’ve had with organizations in the past, that change is too slow. It takes too much time for organizations to really make meaningful transitions, et cetera. That is all wiped away when you’re working one-to-one with individuals. There’s change happening you know within 45 minutes, within a single call. Let alone over six months or so. It’s been incredibly exciting, energizing, gratifying, and humbling to be witness to that change and to be part of people’s journeys as they’re figuring out where they want to show up, and how they want to show up and to support them as they grow and transform.

    Joseph: What have you found challenging about this specific transition?

    Maura: [36:31] It can be a bit lonely. I’m a very collaborative person. I love working with teams. Being a one-to-one exec leadership coach is a bit lonely. I’m starting to expand that and work with teams and do more consulting work, which is great. That’s been kind of the biggest challenge so far.

    Joseph: When we were prepping for this call, I remember you mentioning something about this concept of a metamorphosis related to a caterpillar going to a butterfly. You mentioned this concept of “bug soup.” Could you just remind me, what’s that all about, and how has that related to your journey, into coaching?

    Maura: [37:09] I started this transition back in August, September last year, which is around the same time in the northeast of the United States when Monarch butterfly caterpillars go into their chrysalis. We happened to have a caterpillar and we’re doing this with my kids as an activity. We’re doing a lot of research into what’s happening, so we can explain to them. I learned at that time that actually when a chrysalis is formed, if you were to open it up prematurely, in the middle of the metamorphosis, it’s actually a green goo that you’d find inside. What happens is the caterpillar breaks down all of its — okay, I’m not a scientist, that’s my disclaimer. It breaks down kind of all of its softer parts, into this bug soup, and then, it reconstructs into the butterfly. And then, when it’s ready, it opens and we know what happens after that.

    And so, I was really struck as I was going through this process of establishing my own coaching practice by also learning about this concept of bug soup. I thought, “Well, that’s what’s happening to me.” I’m in the middle of this bug soup, where I sort of feel like I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m stepping out on my own, and I’m moving from the comfort and security of a pay check in an organization and a team to being completely on my own and building a business. I’m bug soup.

    I think the lesson there for me is that kind of acknowledging that it was — as I had an MBA professor said, the messy middle, that that’s okay. That’s part of the process. And, sort of trusting that I’ll come out on the other side in some form or another. Hopefully, a good one that can fly. But that was comforting for me at the time to kind of know that even animals go through, our bugs, go through this and I wasn’t so different in that sense.

    Joseph: Speaking of this metamorphosis, the final question for you, Maura. What’s something you’ve learned about yourself as you’ve made this shift from the corporate world into starting your independent executive coaching practice?

    Maura: [39:15] A key lesson for me has been, and continues to be, that I can and do every day author my own story. It’s something that I talk with my coaching clients about in terms of what’s your story and the power of stories. So often, we tell ourselves certain things, we tell ourselves stories. There’s a narrative in our heads, and that is so powerful in terms of shaping who we are and how we show up. We’re talking about career transitions.

    Everyone has the power to author their own story. I talked to my coaching clients about this. The power of stories that we tell ourselves, the narratives in our heads, we all have it. The stories that we create, that we narrate, both looking back in terms of what we want to glean from where we’ve come from and also looking forward, in terms of where we want to go and how we’re going to get there are instrumental in shaping us as personal, as individuals and as professionals.

    I think there are kind of three key things in terms of making those transitions successful. The self-awareness and reflection to actually consider what are your skills, what are the gaps, what do you desire, and what’s the rationale for that. There’s a need to understand what others need. Whether it’s an individual or a system. How can you fit into their needs? How can you kind of bring, as I sort of mentioned as an example, the human side to the consulting work? How is that going to benefit that organization, as an example? And then, the third is to be able to tell a convincing and authentic story. If you can do those three things, that’s it. That’s the magic. Everyone can do that. I truly believe it. Everyone has the ability to do this.

    Joseph: Well, if people are interested in learning more about what you do, or if they need some help with figuring out the human side of their own career story and crafting their own narrative, where can people go to learn more about you or the coaching work that you do?

    Maura: [41:21] LinkedIn. I’m Maura Connell Lightfoot. My organization is MCL Coaching and Consulting. Anyone can find me on LinkedIn, or at mclcoaching.org.

    Joseph: Thank you so much, Maura, for reconnecting. It’s nice to speak with you again after all these years, and telling us more about your life and the Gulf, your various InterContinental moves, how you’ve overcome the challenges along the way, and also some of your own reflections as you have continued to evolve your own career. So, best of luck with your executive coaching endeavors, authoring this chapter of your own career story and also empowering others to do the same in their professional lives. Thanks for coming on to the show.

    Maura: [42:02] Thank you so much, Joseph. It’s been my pleasure. I appreciate it.

    30 March 2023, 12:00 am
  • 46 minutes 59 seconds
    Adapting to New Surroundings with Stefania Tosini- CR93

    Moving abroad for a job can be tough emotionally and practically. Leaving familiar surroundings and loved ones can lead to homesickness and isolation. Adapting to a new work environment, language, and way of life adds to the pressure. However, it can also be a broadening and enriching experience that expands your world in unexpected ways.

    Stefania Tosini, a press officer turned talent acquisition specialist is going to talk about what she wrestled with when making her decision to move from Italy to Germany during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic. In episode 93 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I also share some thoughts on the struggles I had when I moved from the US to the UK  during the Mental Fuel® segment.

    Key Career Takeaways

    1. Leaving one’s family behind to pursue a career can be a difficult decision to make. It can bring up a variety of emotions, ranging from fear and anxiety about leaving a loving environment to excitement for new opportunities and experiences to come.
    2. Do not be afraid to ask for help. Everyone needs support from time to time.
    3. Expectations can be a tricky thing, especially when it comes to your career decisions. Don’t assume that everyone will react to your choices in the way you hope.

    Listener Challenge

    During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about moving locations for your career. My challenge to you is to look forward instead of backward. To trust that you made the best decision you possibly could to serve what you felt was most important to you.

    Focus on doing everything you can to make the most of your current circumstances rather than dwelling TOO much on what you left behind. Start small and decide on one action you can take right now to more fully embrace your chosen path.

    About Stefania Tosini, Talent Acquisition Partner at Zalando

    Stefania TosiniStefania Tosini is a polyglot with a background in international affairs and economics who recently made a big move of her own from Italy to Germany. With over 8 years of experience across multiple industries including roles in education as an English Teacher for the Japanese School of Milan, luxury fashion as a press officer for companies like Dolce & Gabbana, and now in online retail as a talent acquisition partner for Zalando, she finds her professional motivation in helping people find fulfillment and belonging in their careers.

    Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
     Leave Joseph a Voicemail
    You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

    Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting Career Relaunch

    Vista Social logoVista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimize, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista.

    Interview Segment Music Credits

    Episode Interview Transcript

    Joseph: Hello, Stefania. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Thanks for coming today.

    Stefania: [03:34] Hi. Thank you so much for the invite.

    Joseph: Why don’t we get started by getting a snapshot of what is keeping you busy right now in both your career and life? Can you give me a glimpse into what you’ve been focused on recently?

    Stefania: [03:01] First of all, Joseph, thank you for having me as your guest. In my personal life, I’d say that I’m focusing on my family and friends at the moment, especially after moving abroad to Germany. I really realized that family to me is the most important source of energy for myself. To give you some context, I’m from Italy and I think it’s absolutely true what people say about Italians. I match all the stereotypes here. I speak with my hands, and I love good food, and I’m a family person. Definitely, family is one of my main focus points.

    Joseph: What about your career? What have you been focused on at work recently?

    Stefania: [04:40] From a professional point of view, I switched careers and industries a couple of times already. Now, I’m focusing on growing my expertise, in recruiting. I’m working in talented acquisition. Therefore, it’s like really learning all the time and bringing your niche expertise to certain families and sectors. It’s really about growing and keeping on learning.

    Joseph: Now, you are currently at a company called Zalando. For those people who are not familiar with Zalando, can you just give a very quick snapshot of exactly what Zalando is and what you guys do?

    Stefania: [05:23] Zalando is awesome. It’s my employer and it’s an eCommerce platform, basically serving countries in Europe. We sell sportswear, beauty products, fashion products. To me, it’s a very highly advanced tech company. The sector is retail, fashion, and tech at the moment. I am a talent acquisition partner working in recruiting and I just love my job. I love my job because I’m working with people and for people. I do believe that the most important asset of a company is human capital.

    Joseph: Before we go back in time, Stefania, I also know you’re a bit of a polyglot. Can you remind me which languages you speak and how you ended up picking up those languages?

    Stefania: [06:17] Yes, I’m a polyglot. I love studying languages. I’m Italian. Of course, I’m a native speaker in Italian. I speak pretty well Spanish and Russian as well. I’m currently studying German and Japanese, too. Japanese has a longer story behind this. I think my passion for languages started when I was young. I wanted to connect with people faster.

    I remember that once I was traveling with my grandpas to the UK, and I was really, really young. I think I was 6 or 7 years old. I really wanted to connect with people. I wanted to express myself, and the only way to do so was getting confident with the language. That was the moment I realized I want to study languages. I just want to speak with other cultures, understand more from other cultures, connect with them. Perhaps it’s because I come from the country of human relationships, and this turn my interest in learning languages.

    Joseph: That’s amazing when I heard that. As you know, I’m originally from the United States. I come here to Europe and I suddenly realize that everybody speaks at least two languages, sometimes three. In your case, four or five. How did you pick up so many languages?

    Stefania: [07:57] Of course, the more you travel, the more you have the chance to get in contact with other cultures, other traditions. I became curious. Curiosity was the driving factor for myself. Overall, I was really passionate about literature. I loved Spanish literature, Russian literature. I was driven by that. I was resilient. I wanted to read books in the language they were written. To me, that was like a goal. How do I get to this goal? To me, it was just like, “Yeah, let’s go into grammar. Let’s study grammar. Let’s try to speak then with the locals.” Everything that’s related to culture, traditions, it was really moving something inside my soul.

    Joseph: That’s incredible. I would love to dive into this a little bit more because I know, just to switch gears here, if we go back in your history, you spent some time as an English teacher at a Japanese school in Milan. Before we talk about that, can you just tell me about your childhood? What did you want to be when you grew up? How did you think your work life and your adult life was going to look when you were a kid?

    Stefania: [09:17] My biggest dream was actually to become an actress. I totally had a different path. Totally unexpected compared to what I’m doing now. Overall, I think my skills were related to communication and connecting with people, and I was a happy child overall. Smiling and I wanted to also make a difference in people’s lives. Perhaps also sharing the knowledge that I had, and also trying to learn from others. That’s why perhaps I ended up becoming a teacher. As a teacher, you teach, of course, but you get a lot from others, like from your students, from the people you’re working with. I think that teachers make a difference, a really big difference in your life. I must say that I was really, really lucky to have such great examples of teachers in my life. They really inspired me. They really pushed me in becoming a better person, a better student.

    I’m also very conscious about the fact I could study. Now, education is a big topic and still in 2023, a lot of countries don’t have access to education. I was lucky enough to have this in my life. From the moment I understood I have access to education and I have access to great education, what can I grasp from this? How can I have an impact based on all the things that I’ve been in contact with, the people that have been in contact with? That, to me, was the moment that gave me confidence in moving forward in my career and in sharing what I was learning as well.

    Joseph: What triggered you to start thinking about doing something else? It sounds like the teaching was going well, you’re having a positive impact on students. Was there something in particular that got you thinking, “Hey, I might want to try doing something different”?

    Stefania: [11:28] I wanted to be in a new environment because, again, I am a very curious person. I know that I’m energized when I do something different all the time. To me, stability is important. But, at the same time, I really need to do something new and refresh. This opportunity came unexpected, to be honest. I was conducted back then by a head hunter because they saw that I had expertise in communication, that I was speaking several languages, and they were looking for someone who knew pretty well English, and Spanish, and Russian as well. They contacted me for a position in the press office in a fashion and luxury company, Dolce Gabbana based in Milan. I thought that’s the time to make this change and accept this change. I think I had nothing to lose back then. I gave everything to my job in the school but I also knew that it was time to try something new.

    Joseph: You go from being in an academic environment at a Japanese school to one of the world’s most well-known fashion brands, Dolce and Gabbana. Can you give a glimpse into what that was like to work there, and what exactly were you doing as a press office specialist?

    Stefania: [12:57] I was thrilled. I also started questioning myself like, “Why me?” It was an amazing experience. Working in the press office meant taking care of marketers and influencers, taking care of the credits where, of course, the company was mentioned in magazines and newspapers. Of course, online reports, online news. It was really exciting and you felt like being part of this magic world of fashion and luxury. Let’s say there in Milan, it’s really relevant, the sector. I felt thrilled. It was awesome. I loved my daily routine. I love translating press reviews. You really represented the brand.

    Joseph: I’m just speculating, and also wondering. Is working for like a big fashion brand like that, is it as glamorous as it may seem from the outside? I guess I’m imagining a bunch of people who are super well-dressed, very fast-paced, very modern, very current, exciting dynamic environment. What were your expectations of what life would be like there and what was your life actually like there?

    Stefania: [14:08] Absolutely, a nice environment. I must say very competitive. What we may see in movies, such as “The Devil Wears Prada.”

    Joseph: That’s exactly what I was thinking about.

    Stefania: [14:21] It’s absolutely true. There is a lot of competition. There is a lot of props, like pressure on what you do, and how you do that, and how you look, which is great. Don’t get me wrong. If this is what you want, you find exactly what you are looking for. But for myself, I had to be true to myself. I love the job. I loved my daily tasks. I also loved my colleagues and environment per se. But it became toxic for my personality because I tend to be a very competitive person. I tend to perfectionism like I want everything to be perfect. Back then, I didn’t have the tool to stop myself from being this way. It couldn’t last that long based on how I am.

    Joseph: I see. It’s sort of this combination of wanting to be perfect, and also being in a very intense competitive environment. It sounds like that just was not sustainable over time?

    Stefania: [15:26] If you, of course, have other priorities in your life and you want to focus on different things, perhaps it wasn’t really the best path for myself.

    Joseph: How did you go about figuring out what you wanted to do next once you realized that, “Hey, this environment may not be where I want to remain, long term”? What did you do to gain some clarity on what your next chapter might look like?

    Stefania: [15:53] There wasn’t a list of things that I was thinking about. I didn’t prepare any documents, like pros and cons. Of course, most of the current, let’s say mentorship or coaching programs propose, which I think do add a lot of value. But back then, I didn’t have those tools.

    I was connected with some friends, so networking here really played a super important role. They told me, “You know, we’re looking for someone that is going to work in this business school in Milan. It’s a lot about employee relations and events, like connecting also students with job opportunities. Of course, in this role, it’s fundamental. You can speak English and perhaps speak also other languages. Because students are coming from all over the world. Do you want me to connect you to the head of the employee of relations and career services?” I thought, “Yes,” like immediately. I didn’t really think about that twice. I have, of course, my interview process and everything went super well. And then, I started my new job in a new industry, and of course, with a new magic team.

    Joseph: This is, if I’ve got my timeline correct here, you were at Dolce and Gabbana for about a year. And then, in 2017, that is when you went to the SDA Bocconi School of Management in Milan, which is where you and I actually first cross paths. When I think we last saw each other face to face, which was in 2019. You were the career development and employer relations manager for the school. Can you explain what it was like to then go from Dolce and Gabbana back into more of an academic environment? This time, at a school of management but still in Milan. What was the transition like for you?

    Stefania: [17:48] It was a quite smooth transition at the beginning. Also because I always say that once you change a job, what matters the most is how your team is welcoming you, how they’re going to support you. They helped me in this transition. They’ve mentored me. Bocconi was a very, very challenging environment. Perhaps there is this understanding of academic environments as more relaxed, or perhaps laid back. But, in this case, Bocconi was challenging. We had a lot of events. We were responsible for creating training programs for our MBA students and students that were coming from again all over the world, and they had high expectations. You’re asking a lot from yourself. You want to give the best. This environment put me in contact with a lot of great professionals, with a lot of ambitious people. I gave a lot to this business school. But I also think it gave me a lot as well.

    Joseph: It is a really great environment there I have to say, Stefania. I’ve worked with, as you know I work with a lot of different business schools, and SDA Bocconi is just one of them. I do find the students there to be warm, and very diverse, and very friendly. At the same time, very demanding and also very achievement-oriented. And so, it’s an interesting combination.

    Now, I remember having coffee with you across the street from Bocconi in 2019. Now, this is late 2019, which is when I was there to host an in-person workshop. And then, the pandemic happened. Can you explain to me what the pandemic meant for you in your career? First of all, what happened with the work that you were doing? And what did you start thinking about at that time?

    Stefania: [19:45] Back then, I wanted to be challenged more. I wanted to experience something new. On top of this, my partner and I had a distance relationship, and we were ready to move to another country.

    Joseph: Where was he based at the time?

    Stefania: [20:01] He was based in Frankfurt, and then moved to Hamburg. I was based in Milan. We were looking for jobs all around the world. I ended up in Berlin. There were many things that actually contributed to this choice.

    Back then, when COVID hit, I was really scared, frankly speaking. On top of that, they usually say that you should not change more than two variables at a time. Basically, I changed the industry. I changed my role. I changed country, everything all together during a pandemic. Of course, I was scared. I was not fearless. I thought, “Did I really take the right choice? Will I be successful?” Because once you join a new company in Germany, you have six months’ probation period. Something that you’re not used to. I really had a lot of questions. I was questioning myself. I was questioning my decision. I was, of course, a threat about it.

    Unconsciously, perhaps you start putting all those fears that other people have as well. Because you may hear from other people, “Oh, you already have a safe job in Italy. Why are you moving? This is a full-time role. It’s a permanent role. You have security. You have stability. And now, for sure, there’s going to be a crisis. We don’t know what’s going to happen.” And then, I thought, “I know no one knows what is going to happen, with or without the pandemic.” I thought that there is like a certain amount of uncertainty that I can deal with to be happy with my life. The more I’m open to that, the happier I am. I really thought, “It’s time to move on. Let’s do this.”

    Joseph: Did you have a job lined up in Germany before you moved, or did you make this move before you had all that sorted out?

    Stefania: [22:20] I actually already received an offer. This all came before the pandemic started. I was in contact back then with an amazing recruiter working in Zalando. I was really worried, and I was contacting her every day. Like, “Is it really going to happen? Will everything be okay?” Because also all the airports were closed. I didn’t know. “Am I really going to be in that country? Will I be able to start?” It was really, really stressful.

    On top of that, I was leaving my family. It was not really like I’m going on holiday. It’s like, I’m going there. I don’t know, can I actually go back and visit them? I have a very close relationship with my grandpas. They were like my parents, and I was really worried about, “Can I see them again?” All those things worried me but also made me grow.

    Joseph: This is early 2020, when you made the move to Berlin. At the start of the pandemic, lots of uncertainty, lots of airport security. I actually remember at the time, Italy was in the news a lot with lockdowns and a lot of volatility in terms of the regulations. And so, you move over to Berlin. Can you just explain, like what was the toughest thing about making that move for you?

    Stefania: [23:36] Leaving my family. I think that’s still heartbreaking for me because to me, family community is super important, like my friends. I was really worried about what will happen next. I was worried for their health. I was worried for whatever could happen in the future. I was worried for things that I could not control. I also had friends stating they would never do this because they loved their family so much and they would never leave their family in such conditions. But at the same time, I had just left my job and I had another contract to start soon in Germany.

    Perhaps, again, I was unconsciously questioning myself, “Am I a bad person? Why did I take this decision?” And then, I think everything went smoothly when I took the time to step back, really ask myself, “Why did I take this decision?” Realizing that there is “no size fits all,” and take one step at a time. We shouldn’t rush into decisions, but at the same time, we shouldn’t let certain fears block us. I survived.

    Joseph:  Listening to your story, Stefania, I can’t help but find myself thinking about a choice I also made, which was sort of similar to yours. Where I left the Bay Area, where my mother and father only lived a couple hours away from there in California at the time. I moved over here to the UK, which is where I’m now based. I felt very conflicted about that. It was a really hard thing for me to reconcile. Even to this day, I still sometimes find myself thinking, “Ah, I moved so far away from them.” I guess what I struggle with is completely being at peace with the decision. I’m just wondering on a day-to-day basis; how do you manage that? Or maybe another way of asking it is, how do you know when the decision is right even though it involves some major compromises?

    Stefania: [26:04] If you wake up in the morning smiling, then, of course, you feel like that’s the right decision for you. When you face your fears, you just like they construct what is worrying you and why. You give those answers to yourself, you are already halfway. To me, facing fear, be resilient, and try to boost your confidence, bring in your passion every day for what you do. Of course, once you hear back from your family and from your friends and they tell you, “Oh, wow. It looks like you changed a lot. It looks like you’re super happy.” Like, you’re thrilled. Your eyes are shining. Then, you have those answers.

    Joseph: I’m going to shift gears here. I just want to talk briefly about Zalando before we even talk about some of the things you’ve learned along the way. You’ve been at Zalando now for, roughly, three years. It seems like you’ve followed quite a rapid and very fast-paced acceleration in your career there. Can you let me know just how things have evolved for you at Zalando over the past three years?

    Stefania: [27:14] Absolutely. Zalando is a fast-paced environment. It’s super dynamic, and this is what I love the most about it. Working in headhunting or recruiting to me is also like no two days are the same in this field. You need to constantly innovate your strategy, your approach. You have to try new ways to catch the attention of your stakeholders and of your hard-to-find candidates as well. While you do this, you always learn new things and you become the recruiter in your niche. You become the expert. You become the to-go person. This excites me. Perhaps the most important aspect to me is when I offer candidates their dream job. You’re changing their lives. There is no better feeling, and this gives you the energy to keep up with the good work.

    Joseph: I can’t let you go, Stefania, without also asking you a couple recruitment questions. Because you are a talent acquisition partner for a very large organization, Zalando. I am just curious. How have you seen recruitment change over the past couple of years? You mentioned constantly having to innovate. Just wondering, since you’ve been involved in recruitment first on the careers team at a global business school, and now, at a global eCommerce fashion brand. Any major evolution you’ve noticed in the nature of recruitment?

    Stefania: [28:45] The market has changed a lot. There is a lot of competition. Actually, candidates want more. They want more from companies, want more from employers. They want flexibility. I think now, there is more attention towards health topics, and towards how do you want to spend your life. There is more attention to those details relating to your private life. Basically, as a recruiter, you have to be an expert on different job families. You need to understand what are the job families that we’re going to hire most for in the next quarter.

    Joseph: Since you focus on tech recruiting, Stefania, and you’re at a tech company, do you have any tips for someone interviewing for a role in tech? Where maybe they have limited direct experience or they don’t feel like they’re the most obvious candidate for the job on paper. I know I cross paths with candidates like this who are at business schools. The tech sector is always one that a lot of people are interested in getting into. But if you don’t come from the tech sector, any advice for someone who’s attempting to make that sort of a pivot into the industry?

    Stefania: [30:04] First of all, apply. There are a lot of candidates, like potential candidates, that feel like they don’t have the skills to do so and they just refrain themselves from applying. If you don’t try, you’ll never know.

    I push a lot of candidates to get back to recruiters like asking questions. Perhaps we have a first conversation and they don’t have questions for me, or they don’t ask for feedback, ask for feedback always, all the time. That’s the first and most important thing. On top of this, I think it’s super important to connect with people in your network, with people that have the experience that you would like to gain. It’s not about networking for the sake of doing that. It’s not just because you want to sell yourself. It’s good to connect, to create connections, to understand how certain industries work, to inform yourself about it. And then, you can also grasp a feeling, “Is there something for me? Is it something that I could consider?” I get a lot of knowledge around something that you want to do, about a role that you want to take. Connect with people. Ask for connections. Ask for a quick coffee chat, and try until you make it, that’s what I would say.

    I must say that it took me a long time before I landed my dream job. I really left Zalando as the very last company I could apply for because that was my dream company as well. I really got a lot of rejections. But going through all those rejections and those failures, I would say, I understood what I wanted.

    Joseph: Speaking of reflections, Stefania. The last thing I want to talk with you about before we wrap up are just some of your reflections on your very unique and interesting career journey. I’m wondering if you had to give advice to your younger self, as it relates to changing careers or even moving countries, what might that be?

    Stefania: [32:08] Be open. Listen to yourself, like trying to gather reflections also from the people that you meet. The most important thing that I reflected on is that you can do things alone, you can go through everything, but there is also no need to do things alone. It’s important that you learn to be vulnerable somehow. And then, you can ask for help.

    I just learned that having honest conversations with yourself is a priority. I understood that I’m just an adult in the ocean of knowledge. And when you work with such ambitious professionals, and especially with people that perhaps went through difficult situations and you hear certain stories, you start understanding what really counts in life, and that we all have the tools to make it happen if you really want it.

    Joseph: The other thing I was hoping you could talk about relates to your move. Because I know that you mentioned, it was a challenging decision to move away from Italy to Germany, and leave some friends and family behind. Now that you are in Germany, when you look back on this leap, is there something that you wish you had known about moving locations that you now know?

    Stefania: [33:41] You can’t expect everyone to see things as you do. I had my own opinions on my own ideas. I tended to think, “Okay, if I think this way, then it must be the same for everyone.” I wish I knew this before. I can’t expect everyone to react as I wished. I can’t expect everyone to be good to me. At the same time, I can’t be good to everyone. I can’t force myself also to be up to the expectations of others. I wish I knew I could let go of things and people faster. Because we all have different opinions and different paths in life and you have to accept that. I think that was one of the best learnings from a personal point of view.

    Joseph: I was listening to you say that. I guess I also sometimes fall on the trap of letting others’ opinions maybe sway me too much, or disproportionately affect me, especially with the major decisions. Because on those big decisions you’re making in your life, you do want to get a second opinion. Whenever you’re doing anything major. Whether it’s getting surgery done on your body or making a major move, it’s useful to get those second opinions. At the same time, everybody’s coming at it from a different standpoint. Everybody’s coming at it from a different set of experiences themselves, which may have nothing to do with your actual unique situation

    Stefania: [35:16] Correct. It’s like the same feeling that I had, and perhaps was the same feeling that was pushing me back from taking certain decisions. It’s because we have so many different opinions. We also have a lot of noise, and sometimes it’s not just to silence it and just reflect.

    Joseph: Last question for you, Stefania, then I got to let you go here. Having been through this career change, what is one thing that you have learned about yourself along the way?

    Stefania: [35:47] That I tend to be a people pleaser. Perhaps this is something that I have in common with so many other people I met within the last three years. I learned to protect myself and set boundaries. Because when you work with a lot of people, a lot of great professionals, and you perhaps meet a lot of people outside of work as well, and you are far away from the family, you are actually looking for a community and you want to build connections. To do so, you start behaving differently than how you really are. That’s what I learned about myself, “Oh, I’m really a people pleaser.” I didn’t know that that was the level that I was crossing. It was a little bit too much.

    Here is another example where I needed to step back and give myself time to understand. If I could like find this peace within myself as well and not really just have to have the rush to connect because I’m in a new country, because they need to find new friends or new people to connect with, or like that could happen at work as well, really showing that you’re present, that you’re there. That you want to be in the middle of everything, and that you want to perhaps overperform as well. Really being there, being present. I learned to protect myself from many, many circumstances. Learned how to set boundaries. I think this is another super important thing to learn in life, generally speaking.

    Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Stefania, for telling us more about your life there in Germany, and as a talent acquisition partner, your former press office role in the fashion industry, and the pivots in your life. And very importantly, how you know that you’ve made the right decisions for your career and your life, independent of what other people think. It was nice to reconnect with you. I wish you the best of luck with your role there at Zalando, and I hope things continue to go well for you there in Germany. Finally, I hope we’re also going to have a chance to meet up again at some point in the future.

    Stefania: [38:09] Of course, Joseph.

    23 February 2023, 1:00 am
  • 50 minutes 5 seconds
    Pursuing Your Hobbies with Jenny Goh- CR92

    Pursuing hobbies and interests outside of our daily work can be incredibly beneficial for our personal and professional growth. Hobbies can help us relax and reduce stress, increase creativity and productivity, and even open up new opportunities and networks. However, it can be difficult to make time for hobbies when we are busy with work, family, and other responsibilities.

    Jenny Goh, a former conference event planner turned IT firm manager discusses the unique role transitional jobs play in your career and how side activities outside of work can be so useful to pursue.

    In episode 92 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I’ll also share my thoughts about how hobbies have influenced my own life and career during the Mental Fuel® segment.

    Key Career Takeaways

    1. Admitting your own limitations and weaknesses can help you to re-evaluate your priorities and goals, and open up new opportunities for you to pursue something you might be more passionate about or better suited for.
    2. Having a hobby or passion project that you look forward to outside of work can help recharge your batteries and give you the energy and perspective you need to tackle the challenges at work. There will be a day when you aren’t working in your current job anymore.
    3. Learning from the successes and failures of others, as well as listening to the advice and guidance of mentors and peers, can help us navigate the professional world and make informed decisions about our own careers.
    4. If you feel you’ve learned and given all you can in your current role, you should consider seeking new opportunities to continue your personal and professional growth.

    Listener Challenge

    During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I invited you to pursue a new hobby this year. Perhaps an interest of yours that you’ve always thought about investing more energy into but just haven’t made the time for. Allow yourself the freedom to do something you think would be fun.

    This means regularly dedicating time to hobbies. Could you spare an hour on the weekends? Or even just 30 minutes one evening a week? Schedule this time into your calendar like you would with any other important task.

    About Jenny Goh, Product & Scrum Master

    Jenny Goh- Career RelaunchJenny Goh initially thought she would become a scientist, so she spent her university days studying biology and heading down a research path. But when she was working toward her graduate degree, she realized that a career in research wasn’t what she really wanted and maybe wasn’t her natural forte. So, she started soul searching and exploring things like event planning, and eventually landed roles working in IT for companies like IBM.

    Now, as a Project Manager and Scrum Master at Accenture, she’s hoping to use the skills and knowledge she’s gathered over the years to hopefully help and inspire others in their careers.

    Her hobby of learning ballet on the side at the Singapore Ballet has had a direct impact on her perspectives when she’s at work. So I wanted to get Jenny onto the show to not only explain her career transition but also to share her thoughts on the importance of feeding your interests outside of work.

    Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
     Leave Joseph a Voicemail
    You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

    Thanks to Harmoni for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast

    Harmoni Desk LogoThanks to Harmoni Design for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself since 2020, and Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out.

    Interview Segment Music Credits

    Episode Interview Transcript

    Joseph:  Okay. Hello, Jenny. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show.

    Jenny: [03:09] Hi, Joseph. Thank you for having me here.

    Joseph:  I am really happy that we are finally able to do this. You and I first cross paths on Medium actually, and I know we’ve been trying to record this for quite some time. What are you up to right now in your career in your life? What’s been keeping you busy?

    Jenny: [03:25] I’m currently working on a government project here as a scrum master. I’m a deputy project manager helping to manage the day-to-day progress of the project. Basically, running the project for the client. Making sure it meets their timeline and expectations. I’m busy with work, and I’m also busy with moving to a new place. These two activities have taken up the main bulk of my time.

    Joseph:  Now, you’re based in Singapore. Can you tell me a little bit about where you live there and what your neighborhood’s like? Just so we get a sense of where you are there in Singapore.

    Jenny: [04:03] I think most of our listeners probably know that Singapore is small. I live in what we call a township that’s called Serangoon. It’s a rather mature and old estate, but very developed. You can just stay here you don’t need to go out of this little township and you can get everything here. If you’ve been to Singapore, it’s not like an orchard or any downtown place. But it’s just a very neighborhood place that has everything. I like it here. It’s very crowded, but I like it because it’s very convenient. I live just five minutes away from the train station. I’ve been staying here for three years now, and I’m going to move next month.

    Joseph:  Where are you originally from, Jenny? I know you haven’t always lived in Singapore.

    Jenny: [04:57] I was born in Malaysia. I was raised there. And then, I moved to Singapore when I was 19. I have since then spent 20 years here.

    Joseph:  Final thing before we go back in time and talk about your first role as a computer engineer. I know one of the reasons why we haven’t been able to record this for some time is that you’ve been struggling a little bit with COVID. I was wondering if you could just tell me about what impact COVID has had on your life, both health-wise and also just personally.

    Jenny: [05:30] I just caught COVID about a month ago. Actually, around five weeks. I was one of those people who had really serious symptoms, right? Not just asymptomatic, you can just chill out at home, right? I had high fever for three days. I’m nursing a persistent cough. It’s been five weeks. People would say that’s almost a long COVID. I think that has had a significant impact in my life because I’ve been starting to think like, “Should I maybe consider seriously this work-life balance thing?” Not that I’ve never thought about it before, but that makes me even more conscious about my life because I’m struggling to get back to my physical activities because I’m quite active. But I have to cut my exercises by half.

    Joseph:  Thank you so much for doing this. I know you’re not fully recovered. I appreciate you squeezing this in as you’re trying to recover. I just hope you end up getting better soon. We’re going to come back to some of the importance of physical activity to you and your life toward the end when we talk about ballet.

    I was wondering if we could, first of all, just go back in time. I know you haven’t always been in your current project manager role. Could you take me back in time and tell me about what you think you wanted to become when you grew up and what you ended up doing as your first role when you finished up in university?

    Jenny: [06:56] When I was young, I went to maybe grade 7 or 8. At the time, you know when we started having internet, I thought it was cool. I thought I wanted to be a software engineer or computer engineer, right? But in my last year in high school, I discovered genetics. I thought, “Hey! That’s actually way more interesting.” At that time, there was a boom in the biomedical industry. I was getting a lot of influence.

    When I was choosing what to do in university, I received two offers. One is engineering, the other one is life sciences. After a whole realm of struggle, I decided to choose life sciences. I devoted the first about eight years of my life to it. Although, I’m doing something vastly different now. I would say that genetics, to a larger extent, biology is still my favorite.

    Joseph:  How did you know whether you wanted to stick with biology versus going and trying something different?

    Jenny: [08:06] My career is slightly different. I mean, even if you study biology, you could pursue many career paths, right? You could be a high school teacher. You could be a lecturer in the college. You could also be a researcher. You could be a salesperson, what have you, right? I originally chose the academic path. I thought I would become a researcher, and maybe someday teach at a university. But the path as a researcher is not for the faint-hearted. After some years down the road, I realized that I am not super good at it. I love it, but I’m not going to excel in it. It was actually when I was halfway pursuing my doctorate and I was having this self-reflection, “Should I continue or not?”

    Joseph:  How did you know that you weren’t good at it, just out of curiosity? It takes a lot to admit that we’re not good at something that we’ve already invested a lot of time into.

    Jenny: [09:08] As a student, as a researcher, you do need to submit some papers. You need to publish your paper. In comparison to my peers, I was struggling with it. I couldn’t meet my own expectations, or the benchmark that I have, this is where my peers are at, I’m supposed to be here around the same time, right? But I know that I can’t. At that point, I knew that I wasn’t going to do very well in it. I spent a lot of time in the lab. A lot of it is animal studies, right? You’re exploring the project by yourself, and by nature, I’m a sociable person. After some time, I feel like, “Maybe I actually prefer a job that has more interactions with people. And you’re right, it takes a lot to admit that you’re not good in something but once you are able to do that, you open up more opportunities for yourself.

    Joseph:  I can’t remember if I told you this, Jenny, but I was also one of those students in university who studied the pre-medical sciences. One of the courses I had to take was biology, a full-year biology course. I ended up doing a fellowship at a medical school focused on pharmacology research. And so, I was spending all my days, and nights sometimes, in the lab literally pipetting different substances and materials. I spent most of my time counting cells versus actually interacting with people.

    Jenny: [10:48] There we go.

    Joseph:  Yeah. I mean, like you, I just felt like, “This is just not me.” I remember not being very good at it. I remember when we had to present our results to the faculty, I was the only person whose results didn’t turn out the way that I had hoped they would have turned out.

    So, how did you then go from working in that field into what you ended up doing next? Which I understand was event planning, as a bit of a transition into the next chapter in your career.

    Jenny: [11:20] I mustered up all the courage and I told my supervisor, “Look, I’m sorry but I just wanted to graduate with master’s degree.” And then, I was thinking then, “Now what?” I have a lot of options, but I may not have the necessary qualifications to do those jobs, to pursue those opportunities. I started thinking about what I wanted to do, what I where are my interests. I thought that technology is the second thing that I like. But at that time, IT was taking off. I didn’t have the necessary qualifications. I don’t know how to get in there. Then, I thought, maybe then I should just continue looking for jobs in life sciences but it was tough. Either you graduated with just a bachelor’s and you take up some jobs, or you have to have a doctorate degree. And then, you can go to work for pharmaceutical companies, and then you have a decent job and good opportunities. But just having a master’s degree is hanging there. I struggled to look for jobs.

    At that time, this event company, they were looking for someone with life sciences background to plan the program and events for life sciences. They offered me the job and I took it up because I was looking for jobs for a few months already.

    Joseph:  Did you feel like this is where you wanted to end up in event planning, or did you kind of feel this was a transitional role? I’m just curious because sometimes what comes up with people who are trying to make a career change is they wait for the perfect role, or I guess in your case maybe you wait for the right pharmaceutical job to come up, or the right IT job to come up. How did you come to the decision to take this event planning job, which sounds very different from what you had originally thought to do?

    Jenny: [13:17] It really was a transition because I live here by myself. Ever since I graduated from university, I stopped asking for help from my parents, right? I really struggle for a few months and I couldn’t get a job. I had some friends who helped me, and I have plenty of friends willing to refer me to jobs but it would be working in the laboratory again. I already knew I don’t want to go down that path. I’m not a super ambitious person, but I do wish to achieve something in my life. I know that continuing to work as a research assistant or associate in a lab is not what I want. So, I turned out their offers. There were people who helped me. Those are not jobs that I want. As I was struggling, well you need to pay the bills, right? So, I got this job, and I thought, “Why not I just take the job?” and I slowly figure out where to go from here.

    Joseph:  How was that being in that event planning job for you? Knowing that it wasn’t maybe ultimately what you wanted to do the rest of your life, but that it was giving you a steady pay check and something to keep yourself busy as you tried to figure out what to do next.

    Jenny: [14:39] That is a very different industry, I must admit. When I first started, I got a culture shock. I mean, don’t get me wrong, there were a few people who had the same background as I do. Like, they were life sciences graduates but everybody else did not have a life science graduate. That was my first job outside of the academic world. So, it was a big culture shock. I have not really been selling things before. But as an event planner, you kind of have to sell your event and I didn’t know how that worked.

    And then, the people there, they come from very diverse backgrounds. I actually felt that I was quite lucky because I met some really good colleagues there, and we still remain as friends today. This was about around 10 years ago. Everything felt like, “Oh, my God. This is how things work,” you know. It was a small company, very intimate. I had two events planning jobs. And then, the second one was also a medium-sized company. I learned a lot about the events planning industry. That made me realize that, yes, it truly is just a transition job because it really is not what I want to do.

    Joseph:  What steps then did you take to figure out what it was that you did want to do while you had this holdover events planning job?

    Jenny: [16:08] I did continue to apply for pharmacology jobs. Although I know that the chances may be slim, a lot of job openings that was put up, it’s either a clinical trial, kind of associate coordinator, or it’s a lab assistant, or you need to have a Ph.D. I wasn’t really interested in those. But I also thought that, “Okay. I can’t just get stuck.” I thought that I need to look for an opening to technology companies. So, I started looking through jobs trying to see where I can go. How do I get an opening and join? After some searching, I found a job. So, my ex-boss offered me a position at IBM. That’s how I ended up there.

    Joseph:  Just to switch gears here. Now, you have entered into the IT sector or the tech sector, and this is now I’m assuming very different from what you were doing before. Working in a lab, using your biology knowledge, eventually moving into the event space, but still, it being related to your background in the sciences. It sounds like this was a complete departure from what you were doing before. How was that transition for you moving into IBM?

    Jenny: [17:31] That was my first MNC job, and I was also culture shock and blown away by many things. Because I never worked in a huge company like that. And, you’re right, a technology as big as that, they tend to move really fast. I don’t know anything at all beyond what I read from the newspaper. But I really wanted to start something.

    I must admit that other than feeling scared, I also felt insecure. I wasn’t sure if I can keep my job. There was also the constant fear that I wasn’t good enough, I wasn’t learning fast enough. And then, given that I got a job in an IT company now, how do I move from here? I have already changed my job once. Like from life sciences to events planning, and from events planning, now to IT. I was determined to make it work.

    Joseph:  Can you describe what it was like on a day-to-day basis for you to be in this tech job versus what you’re doing before in biology? I’m most interested in just hearing about how you knew that this was not just a repeat situation of being in a lab, where you were completely misplaced but that this was just challenging, and that it was something that you’re going to work on and continue to progress in.

    Jenny: [10:07] In biology — and you definitely understand it because we came from a similar background, right? A lot of things are evidence-based. But, outside of science, you don’t need to be evidence-based. If you end up in a sales job, you can say anything you want. I admit that it was tough for me because I have the tendency to ask, “Why are people doing this?”

    To me, the world was either black or white because science is either you can back it by facts or if the fact says it’s wrong, it’s wrong. I struggle a lot with that. The difference is that in science, it was difficult. You were always searching for an answer but you have to use some kind of evidence to prove it. You have failures every day because your results just don’t turn out the way you want, right? And then, you just keep repeating that.

    But on the other hand, the job that I first started, I was hired as a proposal writer in IBM. Most people are bad at writing. They wanted someone who could understand what the solution is and put it in a very layman’s manner, coming up with certain creative materials to present to the clients to help them understand better. So I was doing a lot more creative thinking work versus the science work, where you need to be very factual.

    Joseph:  The other question I have for you about your time at IBM, before we move into your most recent transition into Accenture, is just what life was like for you in the tech industry as a whole? Working in a very fast-moving industry, work-life balance, the intensity of the job. Can you give a glimpse into what that was like for you?

    Jenny: [20:57] Joining IBM provided me with a very good starting ground. Because the job there, it’s busy but it’s not as hectic as my current job. It provided me with a good starting point you know slowly learning the ropes. I was lucky. I do have to say I was always very lucky to have very great and supportive colleagues and mentors. That played an important part in my growth. After that, I transitioned into different roles at IBM, and it just got more and more hectic from there.

    About a year ago, I joined Accenture. This is by far, my most hectic job. We’re talking about “hectic” as in you go down, you start working, and you have time for lunch. But you don’t really have time to browse Facebook, google for Black Friday sales.

    Joseph:  You’re working.

    Jenny: [21:58] You don’t have time for that, yeah.

    Joseph:  Yeah, you’re focused. You are 100% on, and you do that five days a week, sometimes more. How have you coped with that pace of life at work? The intensity, the non-stop nature of it.

    Jenny: [22:17] I joined at a time when most of us still have to work from home. It was hectic right from the get-go. The first day I joined, I haven’t gone to my orientation, and there were people already asking me to join project meetings. I was like, “What? It’s just my first day! I don’t even know what’s happening. I don’t even know anyone.”

    But because I was working from home, I was still able to steal some time away to do exercise because I’m physically active. That helped a lot with the balance. And because when we work from home, we don’t need to take any public transport. That cut down on the transit time. So, I managed to sleep a little bit more. That kind of helped in the transition to my current project because now, I need to travel to the customer’s office every single day.

    Joseph:  I didn’t ask you this before, Jenny, but how did you go from IBM to Accenture? Is that a move that you had thought to make from tech into consulting, or how did that come about for you?

    Jenny: [23:20] I was already in my sixth year at IBM. Well, my last job there right I had an incredible career. I really, really liked it. IBM, at that time, made a huge move, they acquired another company. And then, their whole strategy changed a little bit. To be honest, I don’t see where I fit in in that change, I felt like I needed more aggressive growth because I felt I kind of stagnant a little bit. I was actually promoted about half a year before I joined Accenture. I was very grateful to my ex-boss, he trusted me and that was very important to me.

    But I envisioned that I could stay in this role for a few years. And the growth may not be what I really want. Because I started in IT a lot later than my peers, right? A lot of my peers, they are already directors. They’re doing so much better. Well, of course, that’s the saying that you don’t compare yourself with others, you compare with yourself but I still want to do well. I wanted to do something for myself. So, I didn’t want to stay in a job where I felt that I may not have the kind of growth that I wanted. I started looking out, and I had a few offers and decided to choose Accenture because I believe that it’s the next best place for me to grow.

    Joseph:  I do want to talk with you about this work-life balance topic and some of the activities that you’ve engaged with outside of work. But before we go to that, I did have one more question about this transition from IBM to Accenture. You mentioned that you had a few different job offers on the table. One of the topics that have been coming up recently in the context of whatever you want to call it, quiet quitting or cushioning, is to while you’re working full time, go ahead and proactively look for roles or network with recruiters, what was your philosophy on that?

    Jenny: [25:26] If you felt like you were not being treated correctly, and going through HR is not the route that you want to take, then I would suggest that you do need to take that either quiet quitting part, or for some people, they just quit. They don’t even quiet quit, they will quit without a job.

    But suppose, if it’s just a very hectic job or maybe you’re just currently stuck in a project that you don’t like, things like that. Or, maybe right now, you don’t like some of the people that you’re working with, but there are the other half of the people that you like, then don’t make the decision of quitting so easily.

    I was very fortunate because I had at one point, wanted to quit what I was doing. But I had a very, very good mentor. He gave me this very good advice that I gave to others right now, too. If you felt that you have learned everything you need from your current role or current company, then it’s time to go. But if you felt like you still have so much more to learn, it’s okay, just bite the bullet. As long as people are abusive to you. Just bite the bullet even if it’s difficult because you’re not going to regret it.

    Joseph:  One other thing I wanted to chat with you about, which I know you mentioned to me the first time we connected, was some of the activities outside of work that has helped play a role in your career change journey. Can we talk about ballet for a second here, and just explain how that has come up in your life and what role it’s played for you? Not only in your current job but also as you think about career transitions in general.

    Jenny: [27:16] It was my close friend who introduced ballet to me. I went for a trial class. I thought, “That was good.” And then, after that, I continued. I have since learned ballet for some three years. Sometimes, you’re so busy that I felt I cannot breathe. It was at ballet that I felt time just stopped. I could focus on myself.

    But more importantly, also my classmates, they come from different backgrounds. You know, women and men of all shapes and sizes. But everybody was just there to pursue one thing that they love. There was no judgment. Like, even if you can’t make a good pirouette, a good turn, no one’s going to laugh at you. Everyone is very encouraging. Having that safe space knowing that I could make mistakes and still feel happy about it, it’s encouraging. It has helped me cope with the stress at work a lot.

    Joseph:  When we spoke before also, Jenny, you told me about a moment when something happened at work that it came from somebody ridiculing something that you had done, and that hit you pretty hard. How did ballet then help you deal with it? Or was it ballet kind of that sanctuary for you?

    Jenny: [28:44] I was ridiculed pretty badly at work one day. I felt like, “Oh, my! I probably should quit this job.” I can’t work with people who are so abusive in the languages that they use. It was a Friday, I remember. I always have classes after Friday, after work. So, I went to my class. I must be honest that I was actually at the brink of crying. I thought, that was really terrible. I felt humiliated.

    But when I went dancing, I was just letting it all go. I was very focused on my dancing. I was reassured by my teacher that it’s okay to make mistakes. I felt that that kind of assurance, plus seeing how people put in so much effort. Even if they can’t do it, it is never discouraged. And, of course, dancing to classical music, it lifted my spirit a lot. Subsequently, when I returned home, I felt that my heart was a lot lighter.

    Joseph:  The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up, talking a little bit more about the performing arts is to first of all talk about some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your career journey. As I’m listening to you describe this story, Jenny, going from the tech industry into what sounds is an even more intense industry at times in consulting an Accenture, it’s stressful to make a career switch. It is very stressful to have an intensive job.

    Sometimes, what we can do is we can — or at least, I find myself doing this. I kind of debate whether or not I should invest my time that is already quite limited into a side activity that’s different from my day job, and maybe doesn’t have a direct impact on my ability to excel at my day job. What have you learned from engaging in something like ballet that is very unrelated to work? I’m just curious about what you’ve learned from that.

    Jenny: [31:00] Of course, there’s no direct relation because I’m doing IT. People would think that, “Why don’t you put your time into good use like learning how to write in another programming language or earn another certificate?” I’m doing that, too. But I felt like, you know, one day, we’re not going to be doing this job anymore. There will be a day when we get old, we want to retire and we want to have something when we grow old. It’s important to develop a hobby, something outside of your life because you’re not just defined by your job. You may be spending 90% of your time at work but that’s not just who you are. that’s just one part of you.

    I have observed so many people older than me, and I’m extremely lucky that I get to learn from them. I have some classmates of more than 60 years old in my class that’s so amazing. I felt that, even though it’s not directly related, it has been teaching me to so many other life lessons. You don’t have to always do things that can help you excel in your career in terms of technical skills.

    I’m a manager myself. When I talk to my younger colleagues, they want to help, they wanted some reassurance. I could always apply some of these philosophies that I learned from ballet, share these lessons, or share these things with my colleagues. I felt that that helps you rethink how you want to live your life. It’s important to have a work-life balance. You can’t just work all the time. Even developing hard skill sets. I would consider that, I mean to me, it’s part of life. Of course, there are people who see that as a hobby. But I just wanted to do something different.

    Joseph:  When you look back on your career change, Jenny, what’s something that you wished you had known that you now know?

    Jenny: [33:14] I honestly wish that there was someone there to kind of share some tips and advice with me. I did enjoy my short time at events planning but I felt also that it was kind of like I took a detour. It’s that maybe if there was someone that I could consult, maybe I would have reached here a little bit earlier. Maybe I could avoid some pitfalls. I’m still grateful of the hard lessons that I learned, but I may not necessarily want others to repeat my mistakes.

    Joseph:  Final question for you before we wrap up. Having been through this career change, what’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself along the way?

    Jenny: [34:05] Growing up, I always thought that I was somewhat overconfident, somewhat arrogant. But, when I decided to do the career switch, I realized that I do have the humility to accept that I just cannot do well in something. I found a lot of peace in accepting that I’m just not good at some things, and that’s perfectly fine because I’m good at other things. That discovery has helped me to cope with a lot of things, because some of my superiors, supervisors, managers, they are actually younger than me. I don’t feel bad at all about taking instructions from them or learning from people younger than me. I realized that I’ve developed that humility that even people a lot younger than us always have things to teach us. That’s very important to me.

    Joseph:  That’s good. That demonstrates how self-assured you are right now. Because a lot of times one of the reasons why we don’t accept advice from others or don’t want to have advice from people perhaps, especially those people who are younger than us, is because we’re not feeling super confident ourselves or we’re a little insecure ourselves about something. So, I think that demonstrates a real maturity on your part as you’ve gone through your journey here.

    What message would you want to share about performing arts in general, especially there in Singapore?

    Jenny: [35:41] I know you have listeners, a lot of listeners from Singapore as well, and maybe in the larger part of Asia, right? I do hope that you know whoever is listening to this would be more supportive towards performing arts. I mean being of Asian descent, our Asian parents, or even Asian parents, in general, are not that supportive of their children pursuing performing arts. Therefore, artists, they’re not paid very well and they don’t get a lot of funding.

    What I hope, and it’s something that I hope I can do in the near future, once I get used to all this hectic life sort of stabilize because I think I’m still trying to stabilize things, I do hope to put in more time to volunteer and help to grow the awareness in performing arts. I hope that more people would come to support the performances. Be it buying a ticket, watching a performance, or even coming to volunteer, donating. There’s a lot of help that is needed for performing arts, especially in a country like Singapore, where people value other white-collar jobs. I hope people would start understanding that you can have a very successful life and career in performing arts.

    Joseph:  Is there any particular performing arts entity there in Singapore you want to give a shout-out to?

    Jenny: [37:16] Yes, definitely. I’m attending adult ballet classes at Singapore Ballet. I’m extremely grateful to my teachers there. I hope that whoever’s listening to this can buy a ticket, support their performances. I know my teachers, they are always very encouraging. I know that they could use a bit more support. I want to thank Singapore Ballet for being part of this important journey of my growth and self-discovery.

    Joseph:  Alright. Well, thank you so much, Jenny, for telling me more about your transitions from biology, to IT, to then project management, and also just the importance of your non-work activities and how those things have played such a big part in your own philosophies and perspectives. It was very interesting hearing about how the performing arts had been a big part of your journey. I just wanted to wish you the best of luck with your role at Accenture and also your ongoing ballet classes. I also hope you make a full recovery from COVID soon. Thanks for being on the show.

    Jenny: [38:19] Thank you for inviting me, Joseph. I do hope that by sharing my journey, I can help a lot of people who have doubts about changing careers or who are feeling unsure of where they are at the moment. I hope to be able to provide that little confidence and maybe just a little bit of positivity in their life. What you’re doing is meaningful. I would continue to support your podcast, and also wishing you all the best.

    Joseph:  Thank you so much, Jenny. I appreciate it.

    26 January 2023, 1:00 am
  • 49 minutes 38 seconds
    Heading in a Better Direction with Tom Keya- CR91

    Our guest on Career Relaunch® podcast episode 91 is a lawyer turned workplace wellbeing consultant Tom Keya. If you’re like me, your stereotypical image of lawyers may involve fast-track professionals in slick suits working at a high-rise office in a big city, working with high-profile clients, and earning lots of money—the kind of stuff you might see on TV.

    Tom’s career in a law firm kind of started like this. He lived and breathed the life of a high-flying lawyer in central London, earning a high salary with big bonuses, and in many ways, he felt like he was at the top of his game.

    However, the pressure of being a high-performing lawyer began to whittle away at his mental and physical well-being. He lost his health, his purpose, and self-worth by ruthlessly trying to succeed in an intense industry. After eventually suffering a complete mental breakdown, he took a year-long career break and decided to stop practicing law entirely.

    Tom discusses his vicious and dangerous spiral that involved drugs, alcohol, and pushing his body and life to the point of total collapse. He also explains the realities of corporate life in a big city and what he did to rescue himself from what became an unhealthy downward spiral. Finally, I’ll share my perspectives on how I think about where I want my career to head in the future during the Mental Fuel® segment.

    Key Career Takeaways

    1. Your job has a direct impact on your lifestyle. You must remain mindful of whether your work is taking your life in the direction you desire.
    2. Hitting rock bottom often forces you to reassess who you are and what you want for your life and career. However, paying attention early on to any signs that suggest you’re headed in the wrong direction can help you avoid a lot of unnecessary pain.
    3. Healing in the environment where you got sick is very difficult. At the same time, leaving even a bad situation behind can be quite scary. If an environment is unhealthy for you, you owe it to yourself to explore other avenues.

    Listener Challenge

    Mental FuelDuring this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about  identifying what’s most important to you at work. Pinpoint three things most important for you to have in your professional life.

    Then, think about how you want things to look across these priorities exactly one year from now. Decide which things you want to refrain from pursuing, to simply maintain as-is, or to proactively obtain. Then, shape your efforts and actions accordingly.

    About Tom Keya, Workplace Wellbeing Consultant

    Tom KeyaFormer lawyer Tom Keya is the owner and chief executive of a corporate wellbeing consultancy and employee wellbeing technology platform Soulh Tech, and a keynote impact investing speaker at the Impact 17+1 Club.

    He now works with companies to monitor the health and happiness of their employees and improve employee well-being, happiness, and retention.

    Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know!

    Comments, Suggestions, or Questions?

    If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!
     Leave Joseph a Voicemail
    You can also leave a comment below. Thanks!

    Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch

    Grammarly LogoBuilt by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can download Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch.

    Interview Segment Music Credits

    Episode Interview Transcript

    Teaser (first ~15s): The mission to the top requires this much effort. And if you don’t do it, you won’t make it to the top. As you perform better, you’re rewarded better. As you work harder, you progress faster. No human being can sustain that level of energy.

    Joseph: Okay, Tom. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is fantastic to have you on the show.

    Tom: [03:56] It’s great to be here.

    Joseph: Let’s start off. Before we dive into your career as a lawyer, and now, your focus on workplace well-being. Let’s talk a little bit about what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. What is keeping you busy?

    Tom: [04:12] First of all, thank you so much, Joseph, for inviting me on your podcast. I’m very excited to share my experience with as many people as I can. Presently right now, I’m working on a corporate well-being platform, as well as doing business development for a lot of professional services firms out here.

    Fundamentally, what I do is I go to businesses and I carry out surveys of their staff. Not necessarily to teach them about stress, anxiety, or anything like that. The sort of usual stuff that people do to take a box. But rather to provide CEOs with a proper map of where their staff indexes as at a given time. And we do two types of surveys. The first one is, of course, one about the building. How people are feeling about being in the building. The second one is their mental health and how they’re feeling.

    Separate to that and similar side, I work at Rothberg LLC, which is a professional services firm in Dubai. They do a lot of company formations in Dubai, as well as just general advice for companies and families that are here. I do a lot of business development for them.

    Joseph: Very interesting. And it sounds like this well-being topic is extremely top of mind right now, especially post-pandemic or I guess, we’re currently still in the pandemic. But I know in most of the surveys I’m looking at, because I focus on career change, a lot of people are starting to look much more at emotional and physical well-being in the workplace. It sounds like you are in the right space at this moment in time.

    Could I also ask, Tom, just a little bit about your personal background? I know you mentioned you’re in Dubai right now. Where are you from and where do you spend your time these days?

    Tom: [05:49] I was raised in the UK. I’m ethnically Persian. But most of the time, I’m between the two countries. I’m in Dubai a lot longer than the UK, but I try and get to the UK at least one or two months a year just to carry on with what I’m doing in terms of mental health. And it’s very interesting you said that mental health is really in these days. I’ve been probably suffering from this for a good 15 years exactly.

    Joseph: We will talk about that.

    Tom: [06:15] And for the first five years, I’ve dedicated my life to it. So it was good to catch it right before the pandemic. And I think a lot of people these days are focused on mental health and well-being for two reasons. One, because of the pandemic and everything that arose from there. But also because working from home has now made the employers compete with the comforts of someone’s home. It’ll be interesting to both explore on this conversation.

    Joseph: Let’s do this, Tom. Why don’t we first of all go back and talk about your former career as a corporate lawyer. Because I know you haven’t always been professionally focused on workplace well-being. But I know that you also dealt with some issues personally as you were going through your career journey. But why don’t we first of all just start with your career history. And could you just tell me about your time as a corporate lawyer, and then we’ll move forward from there?

    Tom: [06:58] There are two types of lawyers in the world. There are those that want to succeed in life and enter the city and play with the big boys, let’s say. And there are those who seek justice for people. I was probably the former than the latter. My father died when I was very, very young. So financial security was very, very big on my mind.

    So, I entered the city. I worked at a very good city law firm for I’d say around 12 years, give or take. I worked at the highest level in the sense that I worked through extremely long hours to become a partner in that business and lead effectively a subdivision, focusing on basically, fundamentally, banks and family offices.

    Joseph: What kind of hours are we talking about here when you say you’re working pretty hard? Can you just describe like how many days a week? How many hours a day are we talking?

    Tom: [07:47] If you want to succeed as a lawyer, you have to treat it like a lifestyle. It’s sort of impossible to treat it as a job. If you want to work 9-to-5, law is definitely not the job for you. So, give or take, 5 a.m. till about 10:30 p.m. was where my hours, give or take. We worked different time zones. I certainly had to get up quite early for my middle eastern clients. And then, you work throughout the day. Pretty much non-stop.

    Joseph: Wow! Okay. And this is five days a week, six days a week?

    Tom: [08:22] Five days a week, definitely. And then, over the weekend, you’d probably spend four or five hours. Either doing business development meeting some of the clients who can only meet each other on the weekend or more likely catching up on work to make your Monday morning just a little bit gentler.

    Joseph: Rightly or wrongly, I guess my perception of the world of law is driven by A, my direct experience working with lawyers may be related to my business or maybe if I’m buying a house. But, probably more often than not, just kind of what I see on TV. And that may not be fair about, you know, “Law and Order,” “Suit.” Like how much do you feel — though, obviously, it’s not an accurate representation of the real world, but what were your perceptions going into law versus your direct experience as a lawyer?

    Tom: [09:06] Your perception when you want to enter the legal career is that you’re going to be surrounded by very, very intelligent people. You’re going to be surrounded by academics. And, you’re going to be given these big complex problems to solve, and deals to close, and cases to litigate, and all of these wonderful things that rightly like yourself you see on TV.

    The reality of it is markedly different in the sense that — and this is right across all law firms. I’m not particularly picking on one firm or the other. I’m specifically choosing the general market is that you’re going to be dealing with a lot of people who have a lot of personal baggage. You’re going to be dealing with a lot of people who, because their identities are surrounded by law that by being say, for example, a senior person within a team, they effectively treat it like a feudal kingdom.

    And also, there’s a lot of just paper pushing, you know. As a junior lawyer, you don’t do anything interesting right up until probably about three years qualified. Until then, you write the bundling papers, or filling out forms, or taking notes.

    Joseph: Okay.

    Tom: [10:10] You’ll be lucky to get a letter in and out of there. In your image that I’m going to walk in, they’re going to give me all this stuff very quickly crushed when someone says, “There’s 60 boxes in there. I need you to review every single one of them and, hopefully, find one a document that I’m looking for;” which always ends up being on the 65th box, right towards the end. And you take your tie off, you pull up your sleeves, and literally, you’re in a basement and looking through these dirty, disgusting files. Of course, that gives away my age. I think a lot of things are done electronically, but the principle is the same.

    Joseph: I’m trying to just imagine you in the basement, doing this as you describe “paper pushing.” What was running through your head at that moment when you started to realize that this was your reality? Did you start to think about doing something else, or did you continue to push forward? What was your MO at the time?

    Tom: [11:00] One of the common things lawyers face is imposter syndrome. Because you sort of think, “I’m not good enough for this job.” Certainly, when you’re reviewing those boxes, you don’t feel imposter syndrome.

    Joseph: I don’t think I can handle this.

    Tom: [11:13] I think the shock that enters the mind isn’t so much about the work you’re doing. Now, you could be very lucky and end up working for a nice person within the team. You, as a junior lawyer, could walk in, there’s super nice guys like, “Look, dude. I’m really sorry to put you through this, but 60 boxes for you to review. Trust me, we’ll go for a beer on Friday. I’ll make it up to you. But I really need you to pay very close attention.” Of course, you do need to pay close attention. Law is a very hazardous job. You miss that document; your client could lose a multi-million-pound case. You end up giving your all at a tedious task.

    But in my case, for example, I was quite unlucky in the sense that I ended up working with not-so-pleasant people. There was one person who was awesome that I worked with. But you’re told, probably in very demeaning ways, to do your job. You’re treated very, very harshly. And into that, that makes you reconsider whether you want to do this. Because when you speak to other trainees at other law firms, they’re like, “Oh yeah. There’s this guy. He’s so horrible. He threw a stapler at me,” you know. You’re like, “Wow! Compared to him, I’ve got it pretty good.” But if this is the best out of all my friends, do I really want to do this? But the financial security point that I mentioned earlier really requires one to sort of step in and just take it.

    Joseph: Now, before we talk about what impact all this had on you, mentally and physically, I did have one question that you alluded to when we first spoke, which was a dynamic that I think exists in many corporate environments, which is that unless you’re at the top of the food chain in an organization, you’re investing a lot of energy to try to get to the top. Could you describe what your experience was in, not only climbing the corporate ladder but wanting to climb the corporate ladder within a law firm?

    Tom: [12:52] Basically, top of the food chain is exactly the only place you’ll feel comfortable. Of course, that’s when imposter syndrome kicks in. But if you want to play it very rough, you would be doing the backstabby way of, you know, “I’m going to try and bury this guy so, in comparison, I look better.” I always do this analysis where I say, “Look, envy is when you look at someone and you want to be like them or better. Jealousy is when you look at someone and you basically say, ‘Oh my God! I want to take him down,’ because I’m never going to be as good as that person.” Most lawyers tend to be envious, not jealous. So, there isn’t that much backstabbing really going on.

    But what you do is you effectively backstab yourself. In the sense that you know that, “Look, if I want to get to the next stage, I won’t do it as 9-to-5. So, I need to be at 8:00 till 6:00. And you get in at 8:00, and see a whole bunch of people who’ve been there already for two hours. You know, the two hours ahead of you. You’ve come in an hour early. So you’re like, “You know what? I need to come in three hours earlier.”

    And it’s not so much they’re deliberately trying to take you down or anything. Nothing like that is happening. It’s just they’re saying, “Look, the mission to the top requires this much effort. And if you don’t do it, you won’t make it to the top.” And this happened with me towards some of my cohorts. In the sense that I went past a lot of people that were probably two or three years ahead of me when I first started. So the rewards are visible. As you perform better, you’re rewarded better. As you work harder, you progress faster. There is no lie in that in any, any law firm. Unless you work for a very, very small law firm where there’s only one partner.

    Joseph: As I’m hearing this, Tom, what I’m envisioning in my mind is a super stressful environment. And I’m also feeling this real need to achieve, and excel, and accelerate in your career. I’d like to shift gears here now and talk a little bit about the personal impact this had on you, and how you dealt with this personally.

    When I’m thinking about the pace of law as you’re describing it, can you explain to me, beyond the work itself, what were some of the steps that you took to just maintain that pace?

    Tom: [14:56] No human being can sustain that level of energy. It doesn’t really happen. The way it starts normally is for your early 20s, you can keep up. For your early 20s, generally speaking, what you do is you throw yourself into the fire and you’ve got a lot of capacity. You smash it out. And on Fridays, because you haven’t done anything all week because you’ve just been working or trying to do business development in the evenings, certainly within the British culture, the only way forward is Friday drinks. And that’s something I celebrate. I still do every now and again. It’s quite fun.

    Go to the pub, get a couple of drinks, then a couple more drinks, then a couple more drinks. Of course, what then happens is you wake up on Saturday feeling rough. And as you get older, that waking up on Saturday gets worse and worse and worse. And to be able to keep up at this pace, you don’t necessarily within that environment realize that you have developed a mental health problem in the form of OCDs, addictions, et cetera. You wake up one day and you’re like, “Look, I just can’t physically get out of bed. Oh, it might be too many drinks last night.”

    And, eventually, at some point somewhere, someone said, “Look, you know something. You know that guy down the corridor who’s keeping up with you? You know, he’s actually on drugs.” He’s either taking Ritalin or whatever, and that’s why he’s going up. We’re trying to compete organically against someone so synthetic. It starts with having one coffee. And that’s why I sort of discourage people drinking coffee because that’s how it all starts. That’s with having one coffee to eight cups a day. Then it goes from eight cups won’t do it. So then, you start entertaining other things.

    I’m not saying that happens to everyone. But what I’m saying is when you’re exhausted and drinking tea or coffee is not keeping you awake, you then eventually turn to drugs. And I’m talking, obviously, very serious drugs here. And it comes to a Friday where you’re just completely drained, you can’t physically lift yourself, your friends are all like, “Tom, let’s go out for a couple of drinks.” And you’re like, “I just can’t do this.” And of course, what then happens is someone gives you something and suddenly you get on it, “Let’s go have fun!”

    And what you’re basically doing here is you’re replacing happiness with fun. You equate fun being happiness. You’re like, “As long as I’m out on Friday until 4 a.m. in the morning, that means I’m enjoying my youth.” That’s what you basically start to think. And the next thing you know, that becomes almost habitual. It becomes a thing that, “Look, I can push it to the nth degree, but I know I’ve got something that can help me push it even further.” And that’s exactly where it goes wrong. That’s exactly when you’re like, “I’m unstoppable. I’m Immortal. I’m doing all these wonderful things.”

    And, actually, you don’t realize this. You’re opening yourself up to effectively hell. Drugs and alcohol are a huge part of the city. And I think anyone who doesn’t talk about this openly is doing disservice. They’re not raising awareness of what is actually going on on the ground, and that’s just the fact.

    Joseph: Just to get specific here, what kind of drugs are we talking about here and how long were you on these drugs for?

    Tom: [17:49] For two years, I was probably experimenting with different drugs before I had a complete categorical breakdown.

    Joseph: What? We’re talking cocaine? Are we talking —

    Tom: [17:58] This is a typical example. For example, you decide that you want to go away for the weekend. And the way it really works is you work, you beast it, right until Friday evening. Okay? And now, you decide to take a flight to Ibiza to party with your friends. Because as I said earlier, what you’re doing is you’re equating fun with happiness. You’re basically saying, “As long as I’m partying, I’m happy.” You’re not saying, “happiness with everything around me.” Sort of like trying to run away. Sort of like trying to escape the reality of what you’re facing.

    In that regard, you say great to seek this unbelievable happiness. I am going to stay awake. So you land in Ibiza, and the first thing someone does is gives you some coke. We take that. That helps you stabilize. And now, you’re going to the party where everyone’s just drinking MDMA. And what means sort of started accidentally. I went to Ibiza with a bunch of guys, and I didn’t know what was going on. And one of them gave me a bottle of water, and I drank it, and I was able to keep up for the entire two days. And then, someone said, “By the way, the water you drank was actually drugs. It was MDMA.”

    Joseph: Okay, Tom. So at the risk of coming across as a bit naive and sounding like I’ve lived in a bubble my whole life. As someone myself who has never used illicit drugs or been around illicit drugs, or even seen that many drugs in my life, could you give me a sense of exactly how pervasive drug usage was amongst the people around you?

    Tom: [19:24] Do a sample test of anyone working in the city, anyone. And out of 100 people, give or take, 80 would test positive.

    Joseph: Wow!

    Tom: [19:34] I would be surprised if it’s less. There are a lot of people I know who don’t, of course. But at any given time, 80 of the people working in the city, within service square mile or Wall Street, will be on something for sure. Because you could receive an email now at 7:30 a.m. in the morning, by 8:15, you get a Whatsapp from a client saying, “Hey, did you receive my email?” By 9:15, they expect the draft back. By 11:00, you send it to the other side. By 3:00, they send the response back. I mean how do you keep up with that place?

    Joseph: It’s incredibly quick, yeah.

    Tom: [20:14] And you sacrifice. Obviously, you don’t want to be high while you’re working. But I’ll touch on what happens when you take drugs a bit later. If you’re high while you’re working, then you’re going to be making some bad decisions. But what basically happens is you’ve partied very hard on the weekend. And now, you’re stealing the pain. Because what drugs do is they take you up, and then you come crashing down. And what you’re dealing with now at this stage is the calm down. It’s the anxiety, the depression, and everything that has come with it.

    Put on top of that, the stress and the pressures of the working environment. The bad boss who wants to screw you, who comes to the office drunk at lunchtime, screaming at everyone. So what you then do is you turn to your doctor for some sort of mental health medication, right? That will basically be something like Xanax. In order to calm you down so you don’t have a panic attack within your working environment. Mixing Xanax with alcohol and drugs means that you’re basically going down this spiral, or you’re going to end up making some huge mistakes or doing something wrong.

    But while you’re in that mindset, while you’re in that mood, all you want to do is get rid of the hard competition. You don’t think about the impact this is going to have on your decision-making skills. And come what may, on Friday, you’re still getting calls from your colleagues saying, “Let’s go for a couple of drinks. We got to have a couple of drinks, but we got to close this;” or “Tom, I’m really sorry that I screamed at you. I’ll make it up to you over a couple of drinks.” So you see? It creates its own environment.

    Joseph: Given the fact that it sounds like this behavior is quite normalized and quite common and acceptable in the industry, at what point did you realize that something had to change for you?

    Tom: [21:59] I think it all happened around five years ago. And if I genuinely told you, I can’t remember a lot of what happened five years ago during that nearly a whole year. But, basically, I think I tried to resign twice. I made like a couple of mistakes, and I tried to resign. And at the time my workplace, I was billing them you know millions a year. They were making a lot of money for me, so they didn’t really care. And I was dissuaded from resigning. And then, I think I made a pretty major mistake. I mean my cognitive ability was awful.

    Joseph: Related to a client? Related to a project?

    Tom: [22:34] It was more like an internal mistake. But in law, the biggest fear you have is not necessarily your boss nor is it the client, it’s the regulators. Because the regulators are very aggressive. And just now, they’re beginning to get a grip on the mental health pandemic that’s happening in within the legal profession, very recently now. And this should have been handled maybe 15, 20 years ago. But I’m glad they’re getting a grip of it. But as soon as someone says, “I’m going to make a complaint against you,” that’s your entire career at that person’s disposal. The biggest fear is the regulator.

    And I made a mistake it was a regulatory error for sure. And as soon as it landed and the firm realized, “Okay. Well, now, this could be an ‘us’ issue rather than just ‘him’ issue.” They basically wrote me a list of saying, “Look, you know, Tom, this is a serious mistake.” I resigned very shortly after that. But what happened was, in my mind, I had 12 years of my life I’d given to these guys. Made them so much money and got very little reward, if I may say, financially out of it. Career-wise, definitely right to the top; financially, not so much. And then, when I needed the most, they chewed me out and spat me up.

    Okay. So that was the punch I saw not coming anywhere. Because I thought to myself, “No matter what happens, these guys are going to back me.” They’re going to be like, “Tom, we’ve got you. Don’t you worry about it. You’ve made some mistakes. Let’s meet up, fix it, and then figure out what we’re going to do with you after.” Instead, it was like, “You’re on your own. Good luck.” And I had a complete nervous breakdown. Now, when we say complete nervous breakdown, a lot of people think I was a little bit stressed, I couldn’t get up, no. I couldn’t get out of bed for a month. For a full month, I was flat on the ground. So I lost 11 kilos pretty much straight away. I almost became half the man I was before. And that’s when at last, I went into therapy.

    And they diagnosed me with every single thing that I thought was perfectly normal. I was touching wood maybe 50 times a day thinking that’s normal. I couldn’t look at red post boxes. I thought, “Oh, that, I’m just scared about them.” OCD, like what are you scared about? Waking up in the morning with my heart racing, needing Xanax to calm it down. That’s not normal. You’re a guy in your 20s, you should not wake up at heart palpitations. You should not just be able to sleep for hours. You should not need drugs to party. You should not this and that. And suddenly, you begin to realize actually everything I’ve done, at least for the past seven years of my life, has been completely wrong. And that’s when I really woke up to it. That’s when I was like, “Okay. Well, this was a mistake. Let’s see what’s left of my life. Let me see what pieces I can pick up, and then figure out what I’m going to do next.”

    Joseph: So you’re describing what I often hear from people may not be to this extreme, but there is a point where you hit rock bottom in your career and your life. And it forces you to then wake up, come up for air, and figure out what you want to do next. How did you go about figuring that out?

    Tom: [25:31] The first thing was that I needed to close up whatever happened to my former workplace and get closure on it. So therapy was the first thing. And I say to people, “Look, sports and therapy. Sports, because your body and mind are connected. Therapy, because your body and mind are connected.” So when you go to therapy, you’re basically training your mind. You’re making it stronger.

    Now, some people like to do meditation, phenomenal. No one on earth is going to tell you meditation doesn’t help. Plenty of studies that proved it. Buddhists have been doing it for thousands of years with wonderful effects. In fact, a lot of stuff you learn in therapy are about mindfulness, which has been in the Buddhist culture for thousands of years. So first, it was, “Let me just lift myself physically up and be able to be active again.” Which I did through therapy.

    Joseph: How quickly were you able to get off of the drugs that were causing these highs and lows?

    Tom: [26:20] Right. So the drugs were instant. Because when I went to my psychiatrist, he turned around and said, “There is absolutely no way I’m treating you if you’re involved in any of this stuff. You can’t touch this. This is going to kill you.” I thought that it was a drug that made me make the mistakes that I did. And in my psychiatrist now, I figured out actually no. The pressures in the work environment drove me to such a corner, alongside with my own personal ambition. I’m not saying that you go into the work environment, someone says, “You have to kill yourself,” no. Your personal ambition is a big part of what drives you. Where I needed a synthetic push. I needed something synthetic to sort of drive me forward.

    He said, “Look, I’m going to have to put you on actual mental health medication just so I can reach into you and figure out what’s going on in there. Because right now, there’s just too many panic attacks happening.” And if anyone’s had a panic attack, it’s something that a lot of people just throw around because I just had a panic attack. In reality, a panic attack is this sort of feeling where you’re basically assuming you’re in the worst possible place imaginable. In my situation, I thought that someone’s going to come and take me away and lock me up somewhere. That was on my mind the entire time.

    And then, I was put on mental health medication that allowed me to sort of lift myself up again through therapy. Then the challenge was, “Now that you’re a mental health medication, we need to get you off it now.” And that’s another journey of its own. So between my mental breakdown and me being able to get back up, I’d say there was probably about six months of work that was needed. They were like, “Okay. Well, look, I’m back. What’s left of my life? What have I got around me?” And that’s when you know the old saying, the tradition was saying, “Oh, yes! I know who my best friends are now. I know who’s my family. The value of family,” et cetera. I was very lucky enough with an amazing network and a wonderful family that I was like, “Okay. Well, let’s give this another go.”

    Joseph: It sounds like the therapy was helpful, time was helpful. Just stepping back away from that high-pressure environment was useful. Was there anything that ultimately tipped the scales and opened your eyes to the idea of then helping set up law firms helping with business development? How did that open up for you?

    Tom: [28:33] The thing that comes to mind is that this was entirely avoidable. I realized, again in therapy, that I could have quit a lot earlier, work in a much better environment or created a better environment, and not had to suffer the way I suffered. It’s that that drove me. The fact that everything I’ve been through was perfectly avoidable with the right advice and the right guidance.

    Now, I’m not saying speaking to 22-year-old Tom, you could have persuaded him to work less. I don’t think so, and nor should you. But I think, with the right advice, you could persuade people to know the limits before they have the breakdown. To catch the signs early before things really, really, really mess up effectively. I think when I woke up after six months, I came to, fundamentally, I realized, “Look, none of this needed to happen. Okay. Well, how do I now give back? How do I make sure this doesn’t happen to anyone else?”

    By the way, during this period, I was that Alpha guy. I was the guy that was like, “Look, who needs therapy? You know, get a couple of drinks, we’ll be fine.” And, suddenly, I realized one, the world didn’t end by me not practicing law. It seems as all the clients are fine. Two, my friends don’t like me less by me not being part of a large city law firm. My friends still like me for me. My family is still proud of me. When you realize that you’re like, “Okay. Well then, great! I can do other things. I can do wonderful things that doesn’t necessarily need this much pressure.”

    Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, can you now tell me a little bit more about the work that you ended up deciding to pursue? And I suppose, I’m especially interested in understanding how you knew that you were going to be good at this, and how you knew that this was going to be the right path for you.

    Tom: [30:22] I’d say to anyone looking for a career transition, “You’ll never know.” So don’t look around looking for something you’re absolutely quite categorically confident in. There are ways to ease yourself into it. So for me, one of my friends was setting up a law firm. So I went to him and I said, “Look, let me do the foundational elements. Let me try and help you avoid your firm fundamentally having something wrong with it by having people who could have mental health problems.”

    And you know, I started handing out, really researching finding out, “Look, businesses are losing 25% of their productivity. Thanks to people who are suffering mentally.” You know you can bring in McKenzie, or PWC, BCG even to try and increase productivity by 25%. Or you can look after your staff, much more cost-effective, yes, and give you much more staff loyalty. So I started an experiment that happened with Barclay Road when I went in at the very foundational level. And I was like, “Look, I don’t want to practice law. I’ll do the business development elements. But, fundamentally, I want to be there for the staff. I’m want to talk to them about my experience. I want to make sure that the higher ambitious people so I can tell them how to use their ambition. And I would do that the help of a therapist.” On the mental health side, they’ll come in because I know a lot about mental health in the workplace, but I’m not a mental health expert.

    So, I brought in the experts. I brought in the psychiatrists, the psychologists, the CBT specialists. And we started working on the staff. And the result was completely remarkable. When people were suffering during COVID, Berkeley Rowe’s profitability went up by 200%, something ridiculous. And that’s because the people were trained to handle tough situations. It wasn’t a stress management course, where when you get stressed, try allocating the top priority to the lower priority. Because I was so in it, and I knew all these mistakes that one could make. I would teach them to manage clients. I would teach them to manage their colleagues. And I would teach them to say “no.”

    Joseph: Well, that’s a very interesting transition, Tom. And the last thing I was hoping to talk about before we wrap up with the mental health platform that you’ve recently launched, which I do want to come back to at the end. I am very curious to hear about some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. And the first question I have for you is just what you’ve learned about yourself along the way?

    Tom: [32:46] The best thing I learned was that you can’t heal in the environment you got sick in. But that’s why I love your podcast because it’s about career change. It’s not about job change. And a lot of people I suppose think that, “Look, I hated working in this place. But if I move to that place, I’ll be better.” If you really love your work, you’ll never work again. If you really, really love your work, even in high-pressured environments, you can sort of find a way where you can find the stable route. But when you’re reaching breakdown level, that’s not a healthy environment for you. You need to get out as quickly as you possibly can.

    The thing I learned was it’s a scary path to go down. Humans are animals of habits. You know what to do. You’ve been trained how to do it. You’re older now, “Oh, my God! How am I going to deal with the age difference? Am I going to earn less?” Et cetera. And I would tell people, “Look, what’s the trade-off?” We know that stress causes the worst possible health problems, we know that. We know that for a fact. So do you want to have this poison in you just for the sake of money? And I promise you, you spend all that money trying to treat yourself after. So what I learned was the pursuit of happiness is much more of a fun and adventurous journey than the pursuit of wealth. The weirdest thing is, as soon as you do that, you start making more money. For sure, without a doubt.

    Joseph: Yeah, that’s really interesting, Tom. Because something you mentioned there about getting out of the environment that caused you to be sick. One of the questions that comes up a lot in the line of work that I do is from people who have this belief — and I suppose this is fuelled by just common wisdom that it’s much easier to find your next job when you’re currently employed than it is if you resign from your job that you don’t like, and then you’re unemployed then you try to find a job. What’s your perspective on that? And I suppose, I’m most interested in trying to get a sense of whether you felt like you could have healed if you just kept the stable full-time job while you’re trying to figure out what to do next.

    Tom: [34:40] Each person is different, right? I had the luxury of not having a wife and kids. So I could “almost afford” to move back into my mom’s place and figure out the next step. I think, as with anything in life, imagine you’re removing a plaster from your injured finger, right? Pull it. There is no point doing it slowly. You’re just making the thing last.

    And I think the best way to relaunch your career, the best way to change, is to put yourself in a very, very difficult spot. And that is quit your job. Now, you have no other option but to move. That environment has been fixed. That environment has made you want to go. No money is worth it. No one can pay me genuinely anything to go back into the environment ever again. I would say, “Do it. Instantly. Don’t wait.” Forget anxiety. Brilliant things happen when you’re stressed. Your creativity levels go up. Your thinking becomes sharper. Your mind becomes a lot more agile.

    And I come across a lot of young people for like, “I’ve got this full-time job. I’m working on the start-up on the side.” I say to them, “Look, you’re in your early 20s, work on the start-up. Quit it. Make that start-up your only way out. And trust me, it’ll be a success.” But if you’re trying to put one foot in and the other foot out, you’re never ever going to leap. You’re going to pivot but never leap.

    Joseph: What’s something that you wished people knew about climbing the corporate ladder that you now know?

    Tom: [36:06] I started literally at the time when throwing staplers around the office was becoming taboo, just at the beginning. I still had a couple of staplers been thrown at me. I still had a couple of folders been thrown at me. I was well within that era where they could scream at you to the top of their lung, and you just have to sit there and take it. I don’t know whether that still exists. I haven’t worked in that environment that much anymore. The simple ability to not take that, I wish I knew at the beginning that just being completely loyal is not the answer. You work at a place for four years you get everything you want out of it. Now, if that environment is no longer healthy for you, experiment with the new one. You lose nothing as a result. You literally lose nothing if you just leave. And for me, I chose stability and loyalty over happiness, and a little bit of risk.

    Joseph: A final question for you. You alluded to your 22-year-old Tom before, and I was curious. What you would tell him now about making a career change?

    Tom: [37:06] Twenty-two-year-old Tom was an unstoppable beast. He wants to conquer the world. He wants to become super rich. He wants to have a business and that. The beautiful thing about your career change is that your ambitions never really die. You don’t have to completely kill yourself and become dull and some sort of middle manager somewhere stuck.

    I would tell 22-year-old Tom, work for five years and set up your own business, that’s what I would say. Because I was very entrepreneurial. I’m still entrepreneurial, but I was raised within an environment where you’re told that the best possible outcome is being employed. I would say “no.” If you’re entrepreneurial, have a go at it yourself. Trust me, you’ll find amazing things once you start working for yourself. And I would tell him, “Jesus Christ! Look after your mental health.” I mean, if there was a me when I was young, and someone like me came to our office and he said, “Guys, this is how you avoid regulatory pitfalls. This is how you avoid having problems in your job.”

    And the answer to that simply is look after your mental health. I’m not saying organize your documents adequately. I’m not saying prioritize this and that. I’m saying, “Are you waking up with a hard competition?” Yes, I am. Not good. Okay, resign. Period. Aggressively so. Are you having only four hours of sleep, and you’re stressed when you go to bed, and you’re stressed when you’re waking up, consistently over a month?

    Because sometimes, just jobs are stressful. You’re going to be stressed for a month, that’s fine. But if it’s consistent, quit. Quit, straight away. You’re going to make a mistake. You’re going to do something stupid. Can you tell me that you can’t remember what happened last month in your 20s? Yeah. Okay, quit. When I go into businesses, I just tell the staff, “What’s not normal?”

    And the weirdest thing is seeing these eyes just open when I’m talking about very broadly my experiences, suddenly you see stars in some of these people’s eyes. Because they’re like, “Oh, my God! I do that!” “Oh my goodness! I do that.” I’ve had so many people come to me saying, “Tom, I think I’ve got OCD.” And I’m like, “What do you do?” He was like, “Well, to make sure that the email doesn’t come back from the clients, I count to seven. And, usually, it works out well because seven is a lucky number.” I’m like, “That’s not normal.”

    There have been times, genuinely, when I’ve done these talks and the person who wants to do the talk took me to one side and said, “I may not say these things. Because you know, at one point, I have to discipline my staff.” And I said to him, “Look, if you’re disciplining them the way I’m saying you are, then you need to change.” I see engagements from management and staff. A lot of people are understanding that being the boss doesn’t make you king, and being an employee doesn’t make you a peasant. We’re all in this together. So how can we get the best out of each other?

    Joseph: Well, I’d love to wrap up, Tom, with what you are also focused on right now. I understand you have recently launched a mental health platform. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about Soulh Tech?

    Tom: [39:49] The way Soulh Tech works, I go in and do talks for businesses about their mental health. And what we’ve done is we’ve plugged Soulh Tech in, which is a survey once a month, every Monday morning. Because, usually, people feel at their worst on a Monday morning. And after about six months, we produce this map to CEOs where we basically show them where their staff’s mental health is and has been for the past six months. And also, how the staff are interacting with the building.

    In an environment where people are sort of beginning to either really take on working from home, or struggle with bringing people to the office, we give them an idea of where the staff is. And it’s great because we see how people are feeling and they’ll be able to action that before it’s too late.

    Joseph: I am looking forward to hearing how that platform evolves. And I just wanted to thank you so much, Tom, for giving us a candid glimpse into your former life as a lawyer and how that has now evolved into your focus on well-being and the importance of pursuing happiness over everything else. So, thanks again for your time, and best of luck with your work as a well-being consultant.

    Tom: [40:53] Thank you, Joseph. And thank you for what you’re doing. Because I think it creates hope for a lot of people. Especially a lot of lawyers think there is no life outside of law. A podcast like yours shows everyone in every profession, there’s a wonderful life outside of what they’re doing.

    29 December 2022, 1:00 am
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