Illia Polosukhin, founder of NEAR and co-author of 'Attention Is All You Need,' on why confidentiality will let crypto become daily commerce — plus, some Near lore.

========================================================

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Before co-founding NEAR Protocol, Illia Polosukhin was on the eight-person Google Brain team that wrote the transformer paper — the architecture behind every large language model running today.

He never mentioned it. When Kain Warwick found out two weeks ago, via a crypto AI chatbot, his reaction was: you have to be kidding me.

That backstory sets the tone for a conversation that moves from how transformers actually came together, to why confidentiality is what unlocks on-chain commerce for real businesses, and what NEAR is doing to keep criminals off its network without becoming a surveillance layer.

The hosts also get into the Ethereum Foundation's identity crisis, why Illia thinks decentralization is a tool and not a goal, and what the economy looks like when AI handles execution and blockchain handles coordination.

Host:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kain Warwick⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Founder of Infinex and Synthetix

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Taylor Monahan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Security Expert

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Luca Netz⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, CEO of Pudgy Penguins

Guest:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Illia Polosukhin — Co-Founder, NEAR Protocol - https://x.com/ilblackdragon

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Vitalik finally said ETH the asset matters. Zak Cole’s reaction: ‘Should have said that five years ago.’ What broken cryptoeconomics mean for Ethereum’s future.

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The Ethereum Foundation has lost a wave of senior people in the span of a few months. A new co-executive director nobody has ever met is cutting budgets and releasing documents with a certain aesthetic.

Vitalik published a post saying ETH the asset is the most high-value product of the blockchain. And David Hoffman sold his last ETH.

Zak Cole, president of the Ethereum Community Foundation, and Greg Markou, co-founder of Sprinter and ChainSafe, join Laura Shin to sort through what’s a bear market tantrum, what’s a structural failure, and what would actually need to change for Ethereum to stop ceding ground to its competitors.

The conversation covers the CROPS mandate, the rumored loyalty pledge, broken cryptoeconomics, and what Zak says the EF still refuses to admit.

Host:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained

Guests:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Zak Cole - Managing Partner, Number Group; President, Ethereum Community Foundation

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Greg Markou - Co-founder and CEO, Sprinter; Co-founder, ChainSafe

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Ethereum's midlife crisis hits the podcast as ex-Bankless and ConsenSys insiders unpack ETH's talent exodus, identity spiral, "Microsoft" future, EF shake-ups, and the Solana contender play-all with spicy takes on airdrops, real dev stats, and blockchain adoption drama.

Welcome to The Chopping Block — where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, Tarun Chitra, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest in crypto. This week, it's an Ethereum apostasy spectacular: we're joined by David Hoffman and Max Resnick, who hit the confessional booth to explain why they've left the church of Ethereum. 

We kick off with David's viral "ETH is money" post-mortem: why he finally sold, and whether ETH can escape its spot on the yield farm for good. Max jumps in with an OG technologist's view on EF's internal struggles, talent flight, and the move-slow, break-nothing philosophy now gripping Ethereum's core. Is the EF just ossifying—or is it devolving into the "Microsoft of crypto"?

From there, the hosts dissect the "second foundation" meme, why Twitter doomers might not matter for the ETH price, and whether Solana has stolen the next generation of devs. Max throws down on Solana's quantum future while the group takes barstool shots at metrics, narratives, and the never-ending "Ethereum is for boomers" debate.

Whether you're a ride-or-die Etherean or just here for the schadenfreude, let's get into it.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pods, Fountain, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.

Show highlights

🔹David Hoffman reveals why he sold all his ETH and stepped down from the "ETH is money"

pulpit

🔹Max Resnick on Ethereum's talent drain, EF's slow tech culture, and missing the Wall Street on-chain boat

🔹Why the Ethereum Foundation's leadership shuffle triggered so much existential dread

🔹The "Ethereum is Microsoft" thesis: ossification, enterprise comfort, and is that a bad thing?

🔹Are airdrops, stablecoin and NFT on-chain metrics just smoke and mirrors?

🔹Developer mindshare —did Solana peak? Has ETH truly lost the next-gen builders?

🔹Will a new "Number Go Up Foundation" for Ethereum change anything?

🔹Solana's post-quantum roadmap: why Max thinks ETH is over-complicating the problem

🔹What happens if Ethereum stops shipping upgrades —can it just coast Lindy-style?

🔹Is the future of crypto "strong" vs. "weak" crypto, and is ETH now firmly a boomer chain?

Hosts

⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tarun Chitra, Managing Partner at Robot Ventures

⭐️Tom Schmidt, General Partner at Dragonfly 

Guest

⭐️ David Hoffman, Co-Founder at Bankless

⭐️ Max Resnick, Lead Economist at Anza

“Why I Sold My ETH” by David Hoffman

https://x.com/TrustlessState/status/2059371247163613489

Timestamps

00:00 Intro

03:12 Why David Sold ETH

05:26 ETH Momentum and Value Capture

07:38 Ethereum Foundation Shakeups

10:18 Max on Tech and Identity Crisis

15:57 Talent Drain and New Blood

19:29 Strong vs Weak Crypto Debate

25:28 Ethereum as Microsoft

30:02 Second Foundation Idea

35:43 Microsoft Era Ethereum

38:20 EF Money Runs Out

42:02 Utility Asset Narrative

46:07 Etherealize Enterprise Push

48:04 Bitcoin Has Saylor

53:32 Ethereum Narrative Whiplash

55:51 Solana As The Yang

58:15 Post Quantum Solana Roadmap

Disclosures

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Banks are about to lose two of their biggest advantages: custody and payments. A new White House EO opening Fed master accounts to fintechs could be the catalyst.

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A White House executive order is pushing the Fed to open its master account system to fintechs and crypto firms, and the implications are bigger than most people realize.

Katherine Kirkpatrick Bos, Jessi Brooks, and Vy Le trace what it would mean to plug crypto directly into the core plumbing of the US dollar system, why traditional banks should be furious, and where the guardrails are missing.

They also dig into the NYT’s scathing CFTC piece and whether the snark undermines the serious allegations. Plus the SEC's delayed innovation exemption, Commissioner Hester Peirce's departure, and the White House AI EO that collapsed in eighteen hours. Jessi maps the four White House factions fighting over AI governance, and argues crypto's "don't trust, verify" model is exactly the accountability layer AI needs.

Hosts:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Katherine Kirkpatrick Bos⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at StarkWare. Previously held senior legal roles across DeFi and centralized exchanges.

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jessi Brooks⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at Ribbit Capital

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TuongVy Le⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at Veda

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Citadel and SIFMA lobbied to slow tokenized equity rules. Arjun Sethi calls it 'corporate plumbing.' Chris Perkins calls it a bond future moment.

---

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Heads up!

If you haven’t yet, be sure to subscribe to Bits + Bips, since the show will migrate there in a few weeks. Follow us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Unchained⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and wherever you get your podcasts.

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Kraken has spent $2.75 billion on acquisitions in the past year, and co-CEO Arjun Sethi says the point is not a bigger exchange. The goal is a 24/7 global operating system for capital markets: spot, derivatives, payments, tokenized equities, and custody under one regulatory stack.

Sethi makes the case for each move, from REAP's tripling revenue in emerging markets to Bitnomial's CFTC trifecta, and says what will actually drive Kraken's next three years is not trading volume.

The conversation then turns to the SEC's paused innovation exemption for tokenized equities, why Citadel and SIFMA showed up to lobby against it, and whether direct listings on crypto rails could eventually replace Wall Street's IPO machine.

The episode closes on a question nobody saw coming: what Pope Leo's first encyclical on AI and finance has to do with the Bitcoin white paper.

Hosts:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Austin Campbell (@austincampbell) — Founder, Zero Knowledge Consulting; Adjunct Professor, NYU Stern

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ram Ahluwalia⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Co-Host, CEO of Lumida

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Perkins⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Co-Host, CEO of 250 Digital Asset Management

Guest:

• Arjun Sethi - Co-CEO of Kraken / Payward and Chairman of Tribe Capital

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Pre-IPO trading is hot ahead of three big IPOs. Perp volume on Hyperliquid went from $3M to $44M in three months, and SpaceX perps is just the beginning, says Dio Casares of Patagon.

========================================================

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========================================================

Pre-IPO perp volume on Hyperliquid grew from $3 million to $44 million in roughly three months.

Anthropic and OpenAI voided secondary shares, sending shockwaves through the pre-IPO marketes. Robinhood launched trust-style tokenized offerings into a gray area. And three trillion-dollar IPOs — SpaceX, Anthropic, and OpenAI — are converging in the same window.

Dio Casares, founder and CEO of Patagon, a private neobank that has facilitated deals in Anthropic, xAI, Circle, and Kraken, explains the structural difference between derivatives and tokenized spot, why second and third-layer SPV waterfalls are legal hot potato, who actually holds the cleanest title, and where the competition for private market liquidity goes next.

Host:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained

Guests:

• ⁠Dio Casares - Founder & CEO, Patagon

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Top Ethereum Foundation staff are leaving. Why? Also, Trade.xyz launched a synthetic pre-IPO SpaceX perp on Hyperliquid that further shows RWAs moving onchain.

========================================================

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⁠Multichain Advisors⁠: Get help navigating TGEs, go‑to‑market, BD and partnerships, capital markets advisory, PR, media placements, KOL activations and more at ⁠multichainadv.com⁠.

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========================================================

A synthetic SpaceX perpetual futures contract launched on Hyperliquid ahead of any IPO, jumping 44% before settling back down. Kain and Tay unpack what it means when a dress rehearsal for one of the biggest potential IPOs in years generates $33 million in trading volume.

Then: the Ethereum Foundation exodus. Trent Van Epps, Josh Stark, Barnabé Monnot, Tim Beiko, and Carl Beek are out. Kain’s theory: longtime Ethereum “missionaries” were given hope for change under Tomasz Stanczak, only to see that momentum fade.

Finally, three DeFi exploits in four days, including a Thorchain attack that Taylor reconstructed in real time using AI tools during incident response — ending with a fully working attack demo she never asked for.

Host:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kain Warwick⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Founder of Infinex and Synthetix

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Taylor Monahan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Security Expert

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Luca Netz⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, CEO of Pudgy Penguins

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Kevin Warsh wants a smaller Fed balance sheet and fewer dot plots. Noelle Acheson says the bond market won't let him have either. Here's what she expects instead.

---

Heads up!

If you haven’t yet, be sure to subscribe to Bits + Bips, since the show will migrate there in a few weeks. Follow us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Unchained⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and wherever you get your podcasts.

----

Bond yields are climbing globally while stock markets push higher on AI optimism — and Noelle Acheson, author of the Crypto Is Macro Now newsletter, argues the divergence is not a contradiction but a warning. In her read, inflation was building before the Hormuz crisis, the BLISS trade has permanently replaced the TACO trade as the structural put under markets, and Kevin Warsh is walking into a Fed that the bond market controls more than he does. She also flags a contrarian indicator nobody is talking about: the gap between the cap-weighted S&P 500 and the equal-weight index is widening at a pace last seen in 1999.

Host:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Steve Ehrlich, Head of Research at SharpLink and Host of Bits + Bips: The Interview - https://x.com/Steven_Ehrlich

Guest:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Noelle Acheson | Author, Crypto Is Macro Now newsletter

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KK, Jessi, and Vy Le call out the silence from CoinDesk and industry organizations after the Consensus after-party was held at  E11even. Plus: Clarity’s odds.

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The CLARITY Act cleared the Senate Banking Committee 15-9, but Katherine, Jessi, and Vy Le are not popping champagne. 

KK puts passage odds at 35-40%. Vy Le came down from 90% after only two conditional Democratic votes out of committee. The ethics fight — whether any bill that leaves Trump family crypto holdings intact can get to 60 votes — remains the most credible blocker. 

Meanwhile, WallStreetBets filed an SEC comment letter defending quarterly reporting that inadvertently makes the strongest case yet for why onchain transparency makes periodic disclosure obsolete. And the crew addresses the Consensus conference after-party, held at E11even, which features strippers: not a word from most of the trade organizations that claim to represent the industry.

Hosts:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Katherine Kirkpatrick Bos⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at StarkWare. Previously held senior legal roles across DeFi and centralized exchanges.

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jessi Brooks⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at Ribbit Capital

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TuongVy Le⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at Veda

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Rebecca from Jito Labs joins Haseeb, Tom, and Tarun for a regulation deep-dive covering the CLARITY Act's stablecoin yield compromise and presidential ethics sticking points, CME and ICE's lobbying war against Hyperliquid's RWA perps, the prediction market legal battle heading to the Supreme Court, and whether the SEC's tokenized securities innovation exemption will actually matter.

Welcome to The Chopping Block – where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, Tarun Chitra, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest in crypto. This week, joining us is Rebecca Rettig, Chief Legal Officer at Jito Labs, who's here to help the crew make sense of the absolute regulatory tornado tearing through the industry.

First up: the CLARITY Act. It just got out of Senate Banking Committee, but the road to passage is anything but smooth. The stablecoin yield fight with banks ended in a "do stuff yield" compromise, but presidential ethics provisions remain the last polarizing hurdle. Rebecca breaks down what actually changes for token founders if it passes — spoiler: not much immediately, since rulemaking alone could take years.

Then: CME and ICE have declared war on Hyperliquid, lobbying the Hill to force CFTC registration on the decentralized perps giant. The crew debates who actually wins US regulated perps, whether Hyperliquid's pre-IPO markets represent a genuine threat to investment banking, and Rebecca introduces "on-chain finance" — a distinction the panel immediately roasts her for.

Finally: prediction markets are in a legal bloodbath across state courts with a Supreme Court showdown likely by 2027, and the SEC's tokenized securities innovation exemption has Twitter buzzing but Rebecca skeptical. Let's get into it.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pods, Fountain, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.

Show highlights

🔹 CLARITY Act Passes Senate Banking – Landmark crypto bill advances with bipartisan support, but presidential ethics provisions remain the final sticking point before a full Senate floor vote.

🔹 Stablecoin Yield Compromise – Banks screamed bloody murder, but the "do stuff yield" deal means transaction-based rewards are in and bank deposit lookalikes are out.

🔹 CME & ICE vs Hyperliquid – Traditional exchanges lobby Congress to force CFTC registration, KYC/AML, and trade surveillance on the decentralized perps giant.

🔹 Hyperliquid Prices Cerebras Better Than Bankers – Pre-IPO market nails the opening price while investment banks undershoot by over 100%, raising questions about the future of book building.

🔹 Rebecca Rettig Returns – Jito Labs CLO breaks down what CLARITY actually means for token founders (spoiler: not much changes immediately — rulemaking takes years).

🔹 Prediction Markets Head to SCOTUS – Legal bloodbath across state courts likely culminates in a Supreme Court showdown by 2027 over CFTC vs state gaming jurisdiction.

🔹 The Super Bowl Coin Toss Traded at 58/42 – Tarun surfaces the most absurd prediction market of the year, and the CFTC chair basically says it shouldn't exist.

🔹 Who Wins US Regulated Perps? – Haseeb bets on Coinbase and Robinhood, Tarun argues there's an opening for a dark horse, and Rebecca flags HIP 4's unified margin as a game-changer.

🔹 SEC Innovation Exemption Buzz – Twitter is hyped about tokenized securities guidance, but Rebecca is skeptical it drops before CLARITY is resolved.

🔹 OnFi Is Not Going to Happen – Rebecca tries to coin "on-chain finance" as distinct from DeFi. The panel roasts her. Mean Girls memes are inevitable.

Hosts

⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tarun Chitra, Managing Partner at Robot Ventures

⭐️Tom Schmidt, General Partner at Dragonfly 

Guest
⭐️ Rebecca Rettig, Jurisprudential Genius at Jito Labs

Timestamps

00:00 Intro

02:10 The CLARITY Act: Banks vs Crypto

05:21 The "Do Stuff Yield" Compromise

07:18 The Compromise: Transaction-Based Rewards

10:22 Presidential Ethics: The Last Sticking Point

12:26 What Actually Changes If CLARITY Passes?

16:01 Token Founders: What Do You Have to Do?

18:41 Developer Protection & DeFi Activity

20:15 CME & ICE Lobbying Against Hyperliquid

26:05 On-Chain Finance vs DeFi

29:57 Who Wins US Regulated Perps?

34:39 ETF Options vs Crypto Perps

40:24 What Hyperliquid Means for Investment Banking

44:50 Retail IPO Participation & Dynamic Share Counts

49:25 Prediction Markets: Kalshi & Polymarket vs the States

51:40 Supreme Court Showdown: CFTC vs State Gaming Laws

58:30 Economic Impact Test 

01:01:47 Tokenized Securities & the SEC Innovation Exemption

01:06:41 Do Issuers Actually Care About Tokenization?

Disclosures

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USDC became Hyperliquid's stablecoin infrastructure, and the 30-year broke 5% for the first time since 2008. Austin, Ram, Chris, and Gordon Liao of Circle work through who wins.

---

Thank you to our sponsor!

⁠Coinbase One⁠: Get 20% off the first year of your Coinbase One annual plan at ⁠coinbase.com/unchained⁠.

Heads up!

If you haven’t yet, be sure to subscribe to Bits + Bips, since the show will migrate there in a few weeks. Follow us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Unchained⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and wherever you get your podcasts.

----

Coinbase and Circle have moved into Hyperliquid, installing USDC as its aligned quote asset and taking over treasury and technical deployment. For Gordon Liao, Circle's Chief Economist and Head of Research, that is a liquidity supernova. For Chris Perkins, it is the moment every TVL-trapping platform was always going to arrive at. 

Meanwhile, the CLARITY Act has cleared the Senate Banking Committee on a bipartisan vote, but the ethics question — whether Democrats will vote for a bill that leaves Trump's family holdings untouched — remains unresolved. 

And as Kevin Warsh is confirmed as Fed chair, the 30-year yield breaks 5% for the first time since 2008.

Hosts:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Austin Campbell (@austincampbell) — Founder, Zero Knowledge Consulting; Adjunct Professor, NYU Stern

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ram Ahluwalia⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Co-Host, CEO of Lumida

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Perkins⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Co-Host, CEO of 250 Digital Asset Management

Guest:

• Gordon Liao | Master of Coin, Circle

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