Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman join our podcast to discuss how psychedelic policy is actually moving in Washington, DC. Lavasani leads Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, a DC-based advocacy organization focused on educating federal officials and advancing legislation around psychedelic medicine. Kopelman is CEO of Mission Within Foundation, which provides scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking psychedelic-assisted therapy retreats, often outside the United States.

The conversation centers on veterans, the VA, and why that system may be the first realistic federal pathway for psychedelic care.

Early Themes

Lavasani describes PMC's work on Capitol Hill, including hosting events that bring lawmakers, staffers, and advocates into the same room. Her focus is steady engagement. In DC, progress often happens through repeated conversations, not headlines.

Kopelman shares his background as a Marine and how his own psychedelic-assisted therapy experience led him to Mission Within. The foundation has funded more than 250 scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking treatment for PTSD, mild traumatic brain injury, depression, and addiction.

They connect this work to pending veteran-focused legislation and explain why the VA matters. As a closed health system, the VA can pilot programs, gather data, and refine protocols without the pressures of private healthcare markets.

Core Insights

A recent Capitol Hill gathering, For Veteran Society, brought together members of Congress and leaders from the psychedelic caucus. Lavasani describes candid feedback from lawmakers. The message was clear: coordinate messaging, avoid fragmentation, and move while bipartisan interest remains.

Veteran healthcare is not framed as the final goal. It is a starting point. If psychedelic therapies can demonstrate safety and effectiveness within the VA, broader adoption becomes more plausible.

Kopelman raises operational realities that must be addressed:

• Standardized safety protocols across providers
• Integration support, not medication alone
• Clear training pathways for clinicians
• Real-world data beyond tightly screened clinical trials

They also address recent negative headlines involving ibogaine treatment abroad. Kopelman emphasizes the need for shared learning across providers, especially when adverse events occur. Lavasani argues that inconsistency within the ecosystem can slow federal confidence.

Later Discussion and Takeaways

The discussion widens to federal momentum around addiction and mental health. Lavasani notes that new funding initiatives signal growing openness to innovative treatment models, even if psychedelics are not named explicitly in every announcement.

Both guests stress that policy moves slowly by design. Meetings, follow-ups, and relationship building often matter more than public statements.

For clinicians, researchers, operators, and advocates, the takeaways are direct:

• Veterans are likely the first federal pathway
• Public education remains essential
• Safety standards must be shared and transparent
• Integration and workforce development need attention now

If psychedelic medicine enters federal systems, infrastructure will determine success.

Frequently Asked Questions

What do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman say about VA psychedelic policy? They argue that veteran-focused legislation offers a realistic first federal pathway for psychedelic-assisted care.

Is ibogaine currently available through the VA? No. They discuss ibogaine in the context of private retreats and future possibilities, not an existing VA program.

Why do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman emphasize coordination? Lawmakers respond more positively when advocates present aligned messaging and clear priorities.

What safety issues are discussed by Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman? They highlight the need for standardized screening, monitoring, integration support, and transparent review of adverse events.

Closing

Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman provide a grounded look at how psychedelic policy develops inside federal systems. Their message is practical: veterans may be the first lane, but long-term success depends on coordination, safety standards, and sustained engagement.

Closing

This episode captures a real-time view of how federal policy could shape the next phase of the psychedelic resurgence, especially through veteran-facing legislation and VA infrastructure. Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman argue that coordination, public education, and shared safety standards will shape whether access expands with credibility and care.

Transcript

Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics Today. Today we have two guests, um, got Melissa Sani from Psychedelic Medicine Coalition. We got Jake Pelman from Mission Within Foundation. We're gonna talk about I bga I became policy on a recent, uh, set of meetings in Washington, DC and, uh, all sorts of other things I'm sure.

Joe Moore: But thank you both for joining me.

Melissa Lavasani: Thanks for having us.

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, Melissa, I wanna have you, uh, jump in. First. Can you tell us a little bit about, uh, your work and what you do at PMC?

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, so Psychedelic Medicine Coalition is, um, the only DC based Washington DC based advocacy organization dedicated to the advancing the issue of psychedelics, um, and making sure the federal government has the education they need, um, and understands the issue inside out so that they can generate good policy around, around psychedelic medicines.

Melissa Lavasani: [00:01:00] Uh, we. Host Hill events. We host other convenings. Our big event every year is the Federal Summit on psychedelic medicine. Um, that's going to be May 14th this year. Um, where we talk about kinda the pressing issues that need to be talked about, uh, with government officials in the room, um, so that we can incrementally move this forward.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, our presence here in Washington DC is, is really critical for this issue's success because, um, when we're talking about psychedelic medicines, um, from the federal government pers perspective, you know, they are, they are the ones that are going to initiate the policies that create a healthcare system that can properly facilitate these medicines and make sure, um, patient safety is a priority.

Melissa Lavasani: And there's guardrails on this. And, um, you know, there, it's, it's really important that we have. A home base for this issue in Washington DC just [00:02:00] because, uh, this is very complicated as a lot of your viewers probably understand, and, you know, this can get lost in the mix of all the other issues that, um, lawmakers in DC are focused on right now.

Melissa Lavasani: And we need to keep that consistent presence here so that this continues to be a priority for members of Congress.

Joe Moore: Mm. I love this. And Jay, can you tell us a bit about yourself and mission within Foundation?

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, sure. Joe, thanks. Uh, I, I am the CEO of Mission within Foundation. Prior to this, most of my adult life was spent in the military as a Marine.

Jay Kopelman: And I came to this. Role after having, uh, a psychedelic assisted therapy experience myself at the mission within down in Mexico, which is where pretty much we all go. Um, we are here to help [00:03:00] provide, uh, access for veterans and first responders to be able to attend psychedelic assisted therapy retreats to treat issues like mild TBI, post-traumatic stress disorder, uh, depression, sometimes addiction at, at a very low level.

Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and so we've, we've been doing this for a little more than a year now and have provided 250 plus scholarships to veterans and first responders to be able to access. These retreats and these, these lifesaving medicines. Um, we're also partnered, uh, you may or may not know with Melissa at Psychedelic Medicine Coalition to help advance education and policy, specifically the innovative, uh, therapy Centers of Excellence Act [00:04:00] that Melissa has worked for a number of years on now to bring to both Houses of Congress.

Joe Moore: Thank you for that. Um, so let's chat a little bit about what this event was that just, uh, went down, uh, what, what was it two weeks ago at this point?

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Yeah. It's called For Veteran Society and it's all, um, there's a lot of dialogue on Capitol Hill about veterans healthcare and psychedelics, but where I've been frustrated is that, you know, it was just a lot of.

Melissa Lavasani: Talk about what the problems are and not a lot of talk about like how we actually propel things forward. Um, so it, at that event, I thought it was really important and we had three members of Congress there, um, Morgan Latrell, who has been a champion from day one and his time in Congress, um, having gone through the experience himself, um, [00:05:00] at Mission within, um, and then the two chairs of the psychedelic caucus, uh, Lou Correa and Jack Bergman.

Melissa Lavasani: And we really got down to the nitty gritty of like w like why this has taken so long and you know, what is actually happening right now? What are the possibilities and what the roadblocks are. And it was, I thought it was a great conversation. Um, we had an interesting kind of dynamic with Latres is like a very passionate about this issue in particular.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, I think it was, I think it was really. A great event. And, you know, two days later, Jack Bergman introduced his new bill for the va. Um, so it was kind of like the precursor to that bill getting introduced. And we're just excited for more and more conversations about how the government can gently guide this issue to success.

Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. [00:06:00] That's fantastic. Um, yeah, I was a little bummed I couldn't make it, but next time, I hope. But I've heard a lot of good things and, um, it's, it sounded like there was some really important messages in, in terms of like feedback from legislators. Yeah. Yeah. Could you speak to that?

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, I think when, uh, representative Latrell was speaking, he really impressed on us a couple things.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, first is that, you know, they really kind of need the advocates to. Coordinate, collaborate and come up with like a, a strategic plan, you know, without public education. Um, talking to members of Congress about this issue is, is really difficult. You know, like PMC is just one organization. We're very little mission within, very little, um, you know, we're all like, kind of new in navigating, um, this not so new issue, but new to Washington DC [00:07:00] issue.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, without that public education as a baseline, uh, it's, it's, you have to spend a lot of time educating members of Congress. You know, that's like one of our things is, you know, we have to, we don't wanna tell Congress what direction to go to. We wanna provide them the information so they understand it very intimately and know how to navigate through things.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, and secondly. Um, he got pretty frank with us and said, you know, we've got one cha one chance at this issue. And it's like, that's, that's kind of been like my talking point since I started. PMC is like, you have a very limited window, um, when these kind of issues pop up and they're new and they're fresh and you have a lot of the veteran community coming out and talking about it.

Melissa Lavasani: And there's a lot of energy there. But now is the time to really move forward, um, with some real legislation that can be impactful. Um, but, you know, we've gotta [00:08:00] be careful. We, we forget, I think sometimes those of us who are in the ecosystem forget that our level of knowledge about these medicines and a lot of us have firsthand experience, um, with these drugs and, and our own healing journeys is, um, we forget that there is a public out there that doesn't have the level of knowledge that we all have.

Melissa Lavasani: And, um. We gotta make sure that we're sticking to the right elements of, of, of what needs to happen. We need to be sure that our talking points are on track and we're not getting sideways about anything and going down roads that we don't need to talk about. It's why, um, you know, PMC is very focused on, um, moving forward veteran legislation right now.

Melissa Lavasani: Not because we're a veteran organization, but because we're, we see this long-term policy track here. Um, we know where we want to get [00:09:00] to, um. Um, and watching other healthcare issues kind of come up and then go through the VA healthcare system, I think it's a really unique opportunity, um, to utilize the VA as this closed system, the biggest healthcare system in the country to evaluate, uh, how psychedelics operate within systems like that.

Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, before they get into, um, other healthcare systems. What do we need to fix? What do we need to pay attention to? What's something that we're paying too much attention to that doesn't necessarily need that much attention? So it's, um, it's a real opportunity to look at psychedelic medicines within a healthcare system and obviously continue to gather the data.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, Bergman's Bill emerging, uh, expanding veteran access to emerging treatments. Um, not only mandates the research, it gives the VA authority for this, uh, for running trials and, and creating programs around psychedelic medicines. But also, [00:10:00] one of the great things about it, I think, is it provides an on-ramp for veterans that don't necessarily qualify for clinical trials.

Melissa Lavasani: You know, I think that's one of the biggest criticisms of clinical trials is like you're cre you're creating a vacuum for people and people don't live in a vacuum. So we don't necessarily know what psychedelics are gonna look like in real life. Um, but with this expanding veteran access bill that Bergman introduced, it provides the VA an opportunity to provide this access under.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, in a, in a safe container with medical supervision while collecting data, um, while ensuring that the veteran that is going through this process has the support systems that it needs. So, um, you know, I think that there's a really unique opportunity here, and like Latrell said, like, we've got one shot at this.

Melissa Lavasani: We have people's attention in Congress. Um, now's the time to start acting, and let's be really considerate and thoughtful about what we're doing with it.

Joe Moore: Thanks for that, Melissa and Jay, how, [00:11:00] anything to add there on kind of your takeaways from the this, uh, last visit in dc?

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I, I think that Melissa highlighted it really well and there, there were a couple other things that I, I think, you know, you could kind of tie it all together with some other issues that we face in this country, uh, and that.

Jay Kopelman: Uh, representative Correa brought up as well, but one of the things I wanted to go back and say is that veterans have kind of led this movement already, right? So, so it's a, it's a good jumping off point, right? That it's something people from both sides of the aisle, from any community in America can get behind.

Jay Kopelman: You know, if you think about it, uh, in World War ii, you know, we had a million people serving our population was like, not even 200 million, but now [00:12:00] we have a population of 330 million, and at any given time there might be a million people in uniform, including the Reserve and the National Guard. So it's, it, it's an easy thing to get behind this small part of the population that is willing to sign that contract.

Jay Kopelman: Where you are saying, yeah, I'm going to defend my country, possibly at the risk of my l my own life. So that's the first thing. The other thing is that the VA being a closed health system, and they don't have shareholders to answer to, they can take some risks, they can be innovative and be forward thinking in the ways that some other healthcare systems can't.

Jay Kopelman: And so they have a perfect opportunity to show that they truly care for their veterans, which don't, I'm not saying they don't, but this would be an [00:13:00] opportunity to show that carrot at a whole different level. Uh, it would allow them to innovate and be a leader in something as, uh, as our friend Jim Hancock will say, you know.

Jay Kopelman: When he went to the Naval Academy, they had the world's best shipbuilding program. Why doesn't the VA have the world's best care program for things like TBI and PTSD, which affects, you know, 40 something percent of all veterans, right? So, so there's, there's an opportunity here for the VA to lead from the front.

Jay Kopelman: Um, the, these medicines provide, you know, reasonably lasting care where it's kind of a one and done. Whereas with the current systems, the, you know, and, and [00:14:00] again, not to denigrate the VA in any way, they're doing the best job they can with the tools in their toolbox, right? But maybe it's time for a trip to Home Depot.

Jay Kopelman: Let's get some new tools. And have some new ways of fixing what's broken, which is really the way of doing things. It's not, veterans aren't broken, we are who we are. Um, but it's a, it's a way to fix what isn't working. So I, I think that, you know, given there's tremendous veteran homelessness still, you know, addiction issues, all these things that do translate to the population at large are things that can be worked on in this one system, the va that can then be shown to have efficacy, have good data, have [00:15:00] good outcomes, and, and take it to the population at large.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Brilliant. Thanks for that. And so there was another thing I wanted to pivot to, which is some of the recent press. So we've, um, seen a little bit of press around some, um, in one instance, some bad behavior in Mexico that a FI put out Americans thrive again, put out. And then another case there was a, a recent fatality.

Joe Moore: And I think, um, both are tragic. Like we shouldn't be having to deal with this at this point. Um, but there's a lot of things that got us here. Um, it's not necessarily the operator's fault entirely, um, or even at all, honestly, like some medical interventions just carry a lot of risk. Like think, think about like, uh, how risky bypass surgery was in the nineties, right?

Joe Moore: Like people were dying a lot from medical interventions and um, you know, this is a major intervention, uh, ibogaine [00:16:00] and also a lot of promise. To help people quite a bit. Um, but as of right now, there's, there's risk. And part of that risk, in my opinion, comes from the inability of organizations to necessarily collaborate.

Joe Moore: Like there's no kind of convening body, sitting in the middle, allowing, um, for, and facilitating really good data sharing and learnings. Um, and I don't, I don't necessarily see an organization stepping up and being the, um, the convener for that kind of work. I've heard rumors that something's gonna happen there, and I'm, I'm hopeful I'll always wanna share my opinion on that.

Joe Moore: But yeah. I don't know. Jay, from your perspective, is there anything you want to kind of speak to about, uh, these two recent incidents that Americans for Iboga kind of publicized recently?

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, so I, I'll echo your sentiment, of course, that these are tragic incidents. Um, and I, [00:17:00] I think that at least in the case of the death at Ambio, AMBIO has done a very good job of talking about it, right?

Jay Kopelman: They've been very honest with the information that they have. And like you said, there are risks inherent to these medicines, and it's like anything else in medicine, there are going to be risks. You know, when I went through, uh, when I, when I went through chemo, you know, there were, there are risks. You know, you don't feel well, you get sick.

Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and it. There are processes in place to counter that when it happens. And there are processes and, and procedures and safety protocols in place when caring for somebody going through an ibogaine [00:18:00] journey. Uh, when I did it, we had EKG echocardiogram. You're on a heart monitor the entire time they push magnesium via iv.

Jay Kopelman: You have to provide a urinalysis sample to make sure that there is nothing in your system that is going to potentially harm you. During the ibogaine, they have, uh, a cardiologist who is monitoring the heart monitors throughout the ibogaine experience. So the, the safety protocols are there. I think it's, I think it's just a matter of.

Jay Kopelman: Standardizing them across all, all providers, right? Like, that would be a good thing if people would talk to one another. Um, as, as in any system, right? You've gotta have [00:19:00] some collaboration. You've gotta have standardization, you know, so, you know, they're not called standard operating procedures for nothing.

Jay Kopelman: That means that in a, you know, in a given environment, everybody does things the same way. It's true in Navy and Marine Corps, air Force, army Aviation, they have standard operating procedures for every single aircraft. So if you fly, let's say the F 35 now, right? Because it's flown by the Navy, the Marine Corps, and the Air Force.

Jay Kopelman: The, the emergency procedures in that airplane are standardized across all three services, so you should have the same, or, you know, with within a couple of different words, the same procedures and processes [00:20:00] across all the providers, right? Like maybe in one document you're gonna change, happy to glad and small dog to puppy, but it's still pretty much the, the same thing.

Jay Kopelman: And as a service that provides scholarships to people to go access these medicines and go to these retreats, you know, my criteria is that the, this provider has to be safe. Number one, safety's paramount. It's always gotta be very safe. It should, it has to be effective. And you know, once you have those two things in place, then I have a comfort level saying, okay, yeah, we'll work with this provider.

Jay Kopelman: But until those standardized processes are in place, you'll probably see these one-off things. I mean, some providers have been doing this longer than others and have [00:21:00] really figured out, you know, they've, they've cracked the code and, you know, sharing that across the spectrum would be good. Um, but just when these things happen, having a clearing house, right, where everybody can come together and talk about it, you know, like once the facts are known because.

Jay Kopelman: To my knowledge, we still don't know all the facts. Like as, you know, as horrible as this is, you still have to talk about like an, has an autopsy been performed? What was found in the patient's system? You know, there, there are things there that we don't know. So we need to, we need to know that before we can start saying, okay, well this is how we can fix that, because we just don't know.

Jay Kopelman: And, you know, to their credit, you know, Amio has always been safe to, to the, to the best of my knowledge. You know, I, [00:22:00] I haven't been to Ambio myself, but people that I have worked with have been there. They have observed, they have seen the process. They believe it's safe, and I trust their opinion because they've seen it elsewhere as well.

Jay Kopelman: So yeah, having, having that one place where we can all come together when this happens, it, it's almost like it should be mandatory. In the military when there's a training accident, we, you know, we would have to have what's called a safety standout. And you don't do that again for a little while until you figure out, okay, how are we going to mitigate that happening again?

Jay Kopelman: Believe me, you can go overboard and we don't want to do that. Like, we don't wanna just stop all care, but maybe stop detox for a week and then come back to it. [00:23:00]

Joe Moore: Yeah. A dream would be, let's get like the, I don't know, 10, 20 most popular, uh, or well-known operators together somewhere and just do like a three day debrief.

Joe Moore: Hey, everybody, like, here's what we see. Let's work on this together. You know how normal medicine works. And this is, it's hard because this is not necessarily, um, something people feel safe about in America talking about 'cause it's illicit here. Um, I don't understand necessarily how the operations, uh, relate to each other in Mexico, but I think that's something to like the public should dig into.

Joe Moore: Like, what, what is this? And I, I'll start digging into that. Um, I, I asked a question recently of somebody like, is there some sort of like back channel signal everybody's using and there's no clear Yes. You know? Um, I think it would be good. That's just a [00:24:00] start, you know, that's like, okay, we can actually kind of say hi and watch out for this to each other.

Jay Kopelman: It's not like we don't all know one another, right?

Joe Moore: Yes.

Jay Kopelman: Like at least three operators we're represented. At the Aspen Ibogaine meeting. So like that could be, and I think there was a panel kind of loosely related to this during Aspen Ibogaine meeting, but

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Jay Kopelman: It, you know, have a breakout where the operators can go sit down and kind of compare notes.

Joe Moore: Right. Yeah. Melissa, do you have any, uh, comments on this thread here? And I, I put you on mute if you didn't see that. Um,

Melissa Lavasani: all right, I'm off mute. Um, yeah, I think that Jay's hits the nail on the head with the collaboration thing. Um, I think that it's just a [00:25:00] problem across the entire ecosystem, and I think that's just a product of us being relatively new and upcoming field.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, uh, it's a product of, you know. Our fundraising community is really small, so organizations feel like they are competing for the same dollars, even though their, their goals are all the same, they have different functions. Um, I think with time, I mean, let's be honest, like if we don't start collaborating and, and the federal government's moving forward, the federal government's gonna coordinate for us.

Melissa Lavasani: And not, that might not necessarily be a bad thing, but, you know, we understand this issue to a whole other level that the federal government doesn't, and they're not required to understand it deeply. They just need to know how to really move forward with it the proper way. Um, but I think that it. It's really essential [00:26:00] that we all have this come together moment here so we can avoid things.

Melissa Lavasani: Uh, I mean, no one's gonna die from bad advocacy. So like I've, I have a bit of an easier job. Um, but it can a, a absolutely stall efforts, um, to move things forward in Washington DC when, um, one group is saying one thing, another group is saying another thing, like, we're not quite at a point yet where we can have multiple lines of conversation and multiple things moving forward.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, you know, for PMC, it's like, just let's get the first thing across the finish line. And we think that is, um, veteran healthcare. And, um, I know there's plenty of other groups out there that, that want the same thing. So, you know, I always, the reason why I put on the Federal Summit last year was I kind of hit my breaking point with a lack of collaboration and I wanted to just bring everyone in the same room and say like, all right, here are the things that we need to talk about.

Melissa Lavasani: And I think the goal for this year is, um. To bring people in the same room and say, we talked about [00:27:00] we scratched the surface last year and this is where we need to really put our efforts into. And this is where the opportunities are. Um, I think that is going to, that's going to show the federal government if we can organize ourselves, that they need to take this issue really seriously.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, I don't think we've done a great job at that thus far, but I think there's still plenty of time for us to get it together. Um, and I'm hoping with these two, uh, VA bills that are in the house right now and Senate is, is putting together their version of these two bills, um, so that they can move in tandem with each other.

Melissa Lavasani: I think that, you know, there's an opportunity here for. Us to show the federal government as an ecosystem, Hey, we, we are so much further ahead and you know, this is what we've organized and here's how we can help you, um, that would make them buy into this issue a bit more and potentially move things forward faster.

Melissa Lavasani: Uh, at this point in time, it's, I think that, [00:28:00] you know, psychedelics aren't necessarily the taboo thing that they, they used to be, but there's certainly places that need attention. Um, there's certainly conversations that need to be had, and like I said, like PMC is just one organization that can do this. Um, we can certainly organize and drive forward collaboration, but I, like we alone, cannot cover all this ground and we need the subject matter experts to collaborate with us so we can, you know, once we get in the door, we wanna bring the experts in to talk to these officials about it.

Melissa Lavasani: So I. I, I really want listeners to really think about us as a convener of sorts when it comes to federal policy. Um, and you know, I think when, like for example, in the early eighties, a lot of people have made comparisons to the issue of psychedelics to the issue of AIDS research and how you have in a subject matter that's like extremely taboo and a patient population that the government [00:29:00] quite honestly didn't really care about in the early eighties.

Melissa Lavasani: But what they did as an ecosystem is really organized themselves, get very clear on what they wanted the federal government to do. And within a matter of a couple years, uh, AIDS research funding was a thing that was happening. And what that, what that did was that ripple effect turned that into basically finding new therapies for something that we thought was a death, death sentence before.

Melissa Lavasani: So I think. We just need to look at things in the past that have been really successful, um, and, and try to take the lessons from all of these issues and, and move forward with psychedelics.

Joe Moore: Love that. And yes, we always need to be figuring out efficient approaches and where it has been successful in the past is often, um, an opportunity to mimic and, and potentially improve on that.

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah.

Jay Kopelman: One, one thing I think it's important to add to this part of the conversation is that, [00:30:00] you know, Melissa pointed out there are a number of organizations that are essentially doing the same thing.

Jay Kopelman: Um, you know, I like to think we do things a little bit differently at Mission within Foundation in that we don't target any one specific type of service member. We, we work with all veterans. We work with first responders, but. What that leads to is that there are, as far as I've seen, nothing but good intentioned people in this space.

Jay Kopelman: You know, people who really care about their patient population, they care about healing, they are trying to do a good job, and more importantly, they're trying to do good. Right? It, it, I think they all see the benefit down the road that this has, [00:31:00] pardon me, not just for veterans, but for society as a whole.

Jay Kopelman: And, and ultimately that's where I would like to see this go. You know, I, I would love to see the VA take this. Take up this mantle and, and run with it and provide great data, great outcomes. You know, we are doing some data collection ourselves at Mission within foundation, albeit anecdotal based on surveys given before and after retreats.

Jay Kopelman: But we're also working with, uh, Greg Fonzo down at UT Austin on a brain study he's doing that will have 40 patients in it when it's all said and done. And I think we have two more guys to put through that. Uh, and then we'll hit the 40. So there, there's a lot of good here that's being done by some really, really good people who've been doing this for a long time [00:32:00] and want to want nothing more than to, to see this.

Jay Kopelman: Come to, come full circle so that we can take care of many, many, many people. Um, you know, like I say, I, I wanna work myself out of a job here. I, I just, I would love to see this happen and then I, you know, I don't have to send guys to Mexico to do this. They can go to their local VA and get the care that they need.

Jay Kopelman: Um, but one thing that I don't think we've touched on yet, or regarding that is that the VA isn't designed for that. So it's gonna be a pretty big lift to get the right types of providers into the va with the knowledge, right, with the institutional knowledge of how this should be done, what is safe, what is effective, um, and then it, it's not just providing these medicines to [00:33:00] people and sending them home.

Jay Kopelman: You don't just do that, you've gotta have the right therapists on the backend who can provide the integration coaching to the folks who are receiving these medicines. And I'm not just talking, I bga, even with MDMA and psilocybin, you should have a proper period of integration. It helps you to understand how this is going to affect you, what it, what the experience really meant, you know, because it's very difficult sometimes to just interpret it on your own.

Jay Kopelman: And so what the experience was and what it meant to you. And, and so it will take some time to spin all that up. But once it's, once it's in place, you know, the sky's the limit. I think.

Joe Moore: Kinda curious Jay, about what's, what's going on with Ibogaine at the federal level. Is there anything at VA right now? [00:34:00]

Jay Kopelman: At the va? No, not with ibogaine. And, you know, uh, we, we send people specifically for IBOGAINE and five MEO, right? And, and so that, that doesn't preclude my interest in seeing this legislation passed, right?

Jay Kopelman: Because it, it will start with something like MDMA or psilocybin, but ultimately it could grow to iboga, right? It the think about the cost savings at, at the va, even with psilocybin, right? Where you could potentially treat somebody with a very inexpensive dose of psilocybin or, or iboga one time, and then you, you don't have to treat them again.

Jay Kopelman: Now, if I were, uh, you know, a VA therapist who's not trained in psychedelic trauma therapy. I might be worried [00:35:00] about job security, but it's like with anything, right? Like ultimately it will open pathways for new people to get that training or the existing people to get that training and, and stay on and do that work.

Jay Kopelman: Um, which only adds another arrow to their quiver as far as I'm concerned, because this is coming and we're gonna need the people. It's just like ai, right? Like ai, yeah. Some people are gonna lose some jobs initially, and that's unfortunate. But productivity ultimately across all industries will increase and new jobs will be created as a result of that.

Jay Kopelman: I mean, I was watching Squawk Box one morning. They were talking about the AI revolution and how there's gonna be a need for 500,000 electricians to. Build these systems that are going to work with the AI [00:36:00] supercomputers and, and so,

Joe Moore: mm-hmm.

Jay Kopelman: Where, where an opportunity may be lost. I think several more can be gained going forward.

Melissa Lavasani: And just to add on what Jay just said there, there's nothing specific going on with Ibogaine at, at the va, but I think this administration is, is taking a real look at addiction in particular. Uh, they just launched, uh, a new initiative, uh, that's really centered on addiction treatments called the Great American Recovery.

Melissa Lavasani: And, um, they're dedicating a hundred million dollars towards treating addiction as like a chronic treatable disease and not necessarily a law enforcement issue. So, um, in that initiative there will be federal grant programs for prevention and treatment and recovery. And, um, while this isn't just for psychedelic medicines, uh, I think it's a really great opportunity for the discussion of psychedelics to get elevated to the White House.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, [00:37:00] there's also, previous to this announcement last week from the White House, there's been a hundred million dollars that was dedicated at, um, at ARPA h, which is. The advanced research projects, uh, agency for healthcare, um, and that is kind of an agency that's really focused on forward looking, um, treatments and technologies, uh, for, um, a, a whole slew of.

Melissa Lavasani: Of issues, but this a hundred million dollars is dedicated to mental health and addiction. So there's a lot of opportunity there as well. So we, while I think, you know, some people are talking about, oh, we need a executive order on Iboga, it's like, well, you know, the, the president is thinking, um, about, you know, what issues can land with his, uh, voting block.

Melissa Lavasani: And I think it's, I don't think we necessarily need a specific executive order on Iboga to call this a success. It's like, let's look at what, [00:38:00] um, what's just been announced from the White House. They're, they're all in on. Thinking creatively and finding, uh, new solutions for this. And this is kind of, this aligns with, um, HHS secretaries, uh, Robert F.

Melissa Lavasani: Kennedy Junior's goals when he took on this, this role of Health Secretary. Um, addiction has been a discussion that, you know, he has personal, um, a personal tie to from his own experience. And, um, I think when this administration started, there was so much like fervor around the, the dialogue of like, everyone's talking about psychedelics.

Melissa Lavasani: It was Secretary Kennedy, it was, uh, secretary Collins at the va. It was FDA Commissioner Marty Macari. And I think that there's like a lot of undue frustration within folks 'cause um, you don't necessarily snap your fingers and change happens in Washington dc This is not the city for that. And it's intentionally designed to move slow so that we can avoid really big mistakes.

Melissa Lavasani: Um. [00:39:00] I think we're a year into this administration and these two announcements are, are pretty huge considering, um, you know, the, we, there are known people within domestic policy council that don't, aren't necessarily supportive of psychedelic medicine. So there's a really amazing progress here, and frustrating as it might be to, um, just be waiting for this administration to make some major move.

Melissa Lavasani: I think they are making major moves like for Washington, DC These, these are major moves and we just gotta figure out how we can, um, take these initiatives and apply them to the issue of psychedelic medicines.

Joe Moore: Thanks, Melissa. Um, yeah, it is, it is interesting like the amount of fervor there was at the beginning. You know, we had, uh. Kind of one of my old lawyers, Matt Zorn, jumped in with the administration. Right. And, um, you know, it was, uh, really cool to [00:40:00] see and hopeful how much energy was going on. It's been a little quiet, kind of feels like a black box a little bit, but I, you know, there was,

Melissa Lavasani: that's on me.

Melissa Lavasani: Maybe I, we need to be more out in public about like, what's actually happening, because I feel like, like day in and day out, it's just been, you gotta just mm-hmm. Like have that constant beat with the government. Mm-hmm. And, um, it's, it's, it's not the photo ops on the hill, it's the conversations that you have.

Melissa Lavasani: It's the dinner parties you go to, it's the fundraisers you attend, you know? Mm-hmm. That's why I, I kind of have to like toot my own horn with PCs. Like, we need to be present here at, at not only on the Hill, not only at the White House, but kind of in the ecosystem of Washington DC itself. There's, it's, there are like power players here.

Melissa Lavasani: There are people that are connected that can get things done, like. I mean, the other last week we had a big snow storm. I walked over to my friend's house, um, to have like a little fire sesh with them and our kids, and his next door neighbor came over. He was a member of Congress. I talked about the VA bills, like [00:41:00] we're reaching out to his office now, um, to get them, um, up to speed and hopefully get their co-sponsorship for, uh, the two VA bills.

Melissa Lavasani: So, I mean, it, the little conversations you have here are just as important as the big ones with the photo ops. So, um, it, it's, it's really like, you know, building up that momentum and, and finding that time where you can really strike and make something happen.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jay, anything to add there?

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I was just gonna say that, you know, I, I, I think the fervor is still there, right?

Jay Kopelman: But real life happens.

Melissa Lavasani: Yes,

Jay Kopelman: yes. And gets in the way, right? So,

Melissa Lavasani: yeah,

Jay Kopelman: I, I can't imagine how many issues. Secretary Kennedy has every day much less the president. Like there's so many things that they are dealing with on a daily basis, right? It, we, we just have to work to be the squeaky wheel in, in the right way, right.

Jay Kopelman: [00:42:00] With the, with the right information at the right time. Like just inundating one of these organizations with noise, it's then it be with Informa, it just becomes noise, right? It it, it doesn't help. So when we have things to say that are meaningful and impactful, we do, and Melissa does an amazing job of that.

Jay Kopelman: But, you know, it, it takes time. You know, it's, you know, we're not, this is, this is like turning an aircraft carrier, not a ski boat.

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah,

Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Um, and. It's, it's understandably frustrating, I think for the public and the psychedelic public in particular because we see all this hope, you know, we continue to get frustrated at politics. It's nothing new, right? Um, and we, we wanna see more people get well immediately. [00:43:00] And I, I kind of, Jay from the veteran perspective, I do love the kind of loud voices like, you're making me go to Mexico for this.

Joe Moore: I did that and you're making me leave the country for the thing that's gonna fix me. Like, no way. And barely a recognition that this is a valid treatment. You know, like, you know, that is complicated given how medicine is structured here domestically. But it's also, let's face the facts, like the drug war kind of prevented us from being able to do this research in the first place.

Joe Moore: You know? Thanks Nixon. And like, how do we actually kind of correct course and say like, we need to spend appropriately on science here so we can heal our own people, including veterans and everybody really. It's a, it's a dire situation out there.

Jay Kopelman: Yeah. It, it really is. Um, you know, we were talking briefly about addicts, right?

Jay Kopelman: And you know, it's not sexy. People think of addicts as people who are weak-minded, [00:44:00] right? They don't have any self-control. Um, but, but look at, look at the opioid crisis, right? That Brian Hubbard was fighting against in Kentucky for all those years. That that was something that was given to the patient by a doctor that they then became dependent on, and a lot of people died from that.

Jay Kopelman: And, and so you, you know, it's, I I don't think it's fair to just put all addicts in a box. Just like it's not fair to put all veterans in a box. Just like it's not fair for doctors, put all their patients in a box. We're individuals. We, we have individual needs. Our, our health is very individual. Like, I, I don't think I should be put in the same box as every other 66-year-old that my doctor sees.

Jay Kopelman: It's not fair. [00:45:00] You know, if you, if you took my high school classmates and put us all in a photo, we're all gonna have different needs, right? Like, some look like they're 76, not 66. Some look like they're 56. Not like they're, we, we do things differently. We live our lives differently. And the same is true of addicts.

Jay Kopelman: They come to addiction from different places. Not everybody decides they want to just try heroin at a party, and all of a sudden they're addicted. It happens in, in different ways, you know, and the whole fentanyl thing has been so daggum nefarious, right? You know, pushing fentanyl into marijuana.

Jay Kopelman: Somebody's smoking a joint and all of a sudden they're addicted to fentanyl or they die.

Melissa Lavasani: I think we're having a,

Jay Kopelman: it's, it's just not fair to, to say everybody in this pot is the same, or everybody in this one is the same. We have [00:46:00] to look at it differently.

Joe Moore: Yeah. I like to zoom one level out and kind of talk about, um, just how hurt we are as a country, as a world really, but as a country specifically, and how many people are out of work for so many.

Joe Moore: Difficult reasons and away from their families for so many kind of tragic reasons. And if we can get people back to their families and back to work, a lot of these things start to self-correct, but we have to like have those interventions where we can heal folks and, and get them back. Um, yeah. And you know, everything from trauma, uh, in childhood, you know, adulthood, combat, whatever it is.

Joe Moore: Like these things can put people on the sidelines. And Jay, to your point, like you get knee surgery and all of a sudden you're, you know, two years later you're on the hunt for Fentanyl daily. You know, that's tough. It's really tough. Carl Hart does a good job talking about this kind of addiction pipeline and [00:47:00] a few others do as well.

Joe Moore: But it's just, you know, kind of putting it in a moral failure bucket. It's not great. I was chatting with somebody about, um, veterans, it's like you come back and you're like, what's gonna make me feel okay right now? And it's not always alcohol. Um, like this is the first thing that made me feel okay, because there's not great treatments and there's, there's a lot of improvements in this kind of like bringing people back from the field that needs to happen.

Joe Moore: In my opinion. I, it seems to be shared by a lot of people, but yeah, there's, it's, it's, IGA is gonna be great. It's gonna be really important. I really can't wait for it to be at scale appropriately, but there's a lot of other things we need to fix too, um, so that we can just, you know, not have so many people we need to, you know, spend so much money healing.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.

Jay Kopelman: Yeah. You ahead with that. We don't need the president to sign an executive order to automatically legalize Ibogaine. Right. But it would be nice if he would reschedule it so that [00:48:00] then then researchers could do this research on a larger scale. You know, we could, we could now get some real data that would show the efficacy.

Jay Kopelman: And it could be done in a safe environment, you know? And, and so that would be, do

Joe Moore: you have any kind of figures, like, like, I've been talking about this for a while, Jay. Like, does it drop the cost a lot of doing research when we deschedule things?

Jay Kopelman: I, I would imagine so, because it'll drop the cost of accessing the medicines that are being researched.

Jay Kopelman: Right? You, you would have buy-in from more organizations. You know, you might even have a pharma company that comes into this, you know, look at j and j with the ketamine, right? They have, they have a nasal spray version of ketamine that's doing very well. I mean, it's probably their, their biggest revenue [00:49:00] provider for them right now.

Jay Kopelman: And, and so. You know, you, it would certainly help and I think, I think it would lower costs of research to have something rescheduled rather than being schedule one. You know it, people are afraid to take chances when you're talking about Schedule one

Melissa Lavasani: labs or they just don't have the money to research things that are on Schedule one.

Melissa Lavasani: 'cause there's so much in an incredible amount of red tape that you have to go through and, and your facility has to be a certain way and how you contain those, uh, medicines. Oh, researching has to be in a specific container and it's just very cumbersome to research schedule one drugs. So absolutely the cost would go down.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, but

Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Less safes.

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah.

Joe Moore: Yes. Less uh,

Melissa Lavasani: right.

Joe Moore: Locked. Yeah. Um, it'll be really interesting when that happens. I'm gonna hold out faith. That we can see some [00:50:00] movement here. Um, because yeah, like why make healing more expensive than it needs to be? I think like that's potentially a protectionist move.

Joe Moore: Like, I'm not, I'm not here yet, but, um, look at AbbVie's, uh, acquisition of the Gilgamesh ip. Mm-hmm. Like that's a really interesting move. I think it was $1.2 billion. Mm-hmm. So they're gonna wanna protect that investment. Um, and it's likely going to be an approved medication. Like, I don't, I don't see a world in which it's not an approved medication.

Joe Moore: Um, you know, I don't know a timeline, I would say

Jay Kopelman: yeah.

Joe Moore: Less than six years, just given how much cash they've got. But who knows, like, I haven't followed it too closely. So, and that's an I bga derivative to be clear, everybody, um mm-hmm. If you're not, um, in, in the loop on that, which is hopeful, you know?

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. But I don't know what the efficacy is gonna be with that compared to Ibogaine and then we have to talk about the kind of proprietary molecule stuff. Um, there's like a whole bunch of things that are gonna go on here, and this is one of the reasons why I'm excited about. Federal involvement [00:51:00] because we might actually be able to have some sort of centralized manufacturer, um, or at least the VA could license three or four generic manufacturers per for instance, and that way prices aren't gonna be, you know, eight grand a dose or whatever.

Joe Moore: You know, it's,

Jay Kopelman: well, I think it's a very exciting time in the space. You know, I, I think that there's the opportunity for innovation. There is the opportunity for collaboration. There's the opportunity for, you know, long-term healing at a very low cost. You know, that we, we have the highest healthcare cost per capita in the world right here in the us.

Jay Kopelman: And, and yet we are not the number one health system in the world. So to me, that doesn't add up. So we need to figure out a way to start. Bringing costs down for a lot of people and [00:52:00] at the same time increasing, increasing outcomes.

Joe Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of possible outcome improvements here and, and you know, everything from relapse rates, like we hear often about people leaving a clinic and they go and overdose when they get home. Tragically, too common. I think there's everything from, you know, I'm Jay, I'm involved in an organization called the Psychedelics and Pain Association.

Joe Moore: We look at chronic pain very seriously, and IGA is something we are really interested in. And if. We could have better, you know, research, there better outcome measures there. Um, you know, perhaps we can have less people on opioids to begin with from chronic pain conditions. Um,

Jay Kopelman: yeah, I, I might be due for another Ibogaine journey then, because I deal with chronic pain from Jiujitsu, but,

Joe Moore: oh gosh, let's

Jay Kopelman: talk

Joe Moore: later.

Jay Kopelman: That's self inflicted. Some people would say take a month off, but

Melissa Lavasani: yeah,

Jay Kopelman: I'm [00:53:00] not, I'm not that smart.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, but you know, this, uh, yeah, this whole thing is gonna be really interesting to see how it plays out. I'm endlessly hopeful pull because I'm still here. Right. I, I've been at this for almost 10 years now, very publicly, and I think we are seeing a lot of movement.

Joe Moore: It's not always what we actually wanna see, but it is movement nonetheless. You know, how many people are writing on this now than there were before? Right. You know, we, we have people in New York Times writing somewhat regularly about psychedelics and. Even international media is covering it. What do we have legalization in Australia somewhat recently for psilocybin and MDMA, Czech Republic.

Joe Moore: I think Germany made some moves recently. Mm-hmm. Um, really interesting to see how this is gonna just keep shifting. Um

Jay Kopelman: mm-hmm.

Joe Moore: And I think there's no way that we're not gonna have prescription psychedelics in three years in the United States. It pro probably more like a [00:54:00] year and a half. I don't know. Do you, are you all taking odds?

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. I mean, I think

Jay Kopelman: I, I gotta check Cal sheet, see what they're saying.

Melissa Lavasani: I think it's safe to say, I mean, this could even come potentially the end of this year, I think, but definitely by the end of 2027, there's gonna be at least one psychedelic that's FDA approved.

Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Lavasani: If you're not counting Ketamine.

Joe Moore: Right.

Jay Kopelman: I, I mean, I mean it mm-hmm. It, it doesn't make sense that it. Shouldn't be or wouldn't be. Right. The, we've seen the benefits. Mm-hmm. We know what they are. It's at a very low cost, but you have to keep in mind that these things, they need to be done with the right set setting and container. Right. And, and gotta be able to provide that environment.

Jay Kopelman: So, but I would, I would love, like I said, I'd love to work myself out of a job here and see this happen, not just for our veterans, [00:55:00] but for everybody.

Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, so Melissa, is there a way people can get involved or follow PMC or how can they support your work at PMC?

Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, follow us in social media.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, our two biggest platforms are LinkedIn and Instagram. Um, I'm bringing my newsletter back because I'm realizing, um, you know, there is a big gap in, in kind of like the knowledge of Washington DC just in general. What's happening here, and I think, you know, part of PC's value is that we're, we are plugged into conversations that are being had, um, here in the city.

Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, we do get a little insight. Um, and I think that that would really quiet a lot of, you know, the, a lot of noise that, um, exists in the, our ecosystem. If, if people just had some clarity on like, what's actually happening or happening here and what are the opportunities and, [00:56:00] um, where do we need more reinforcement?

Melissa Lavasani: Um, and, and also, you know, as we're putting together public education campaign, you know. My, like, if I could get everything I wanted like that, that campaign would be this like multi-stakeholder collaborative effort, right? Where we're covering all the ground that we need to cover. We're talking to the patient groups, we're talking to traditional mental health organizations, we're talking to the medical community, we're talking to the general population.

Melissa Lavasani: I think that's like another area that we, we just seem to be, um, lacking some effort in. And, you know, ultimately the veteran story's always super compelling. It pulls on your heartstrings. These are our heroes, um, of our country. Like that, that is, that is meaningful. But a lot of the veteran population is small and we need the, like a, the just.[00:57:00]

Melissa Lavasani: Basic American living in middle America, um, understanding what psychedelics are so that in, in, in presenting to them the stories that they can relate to, um, because that's how you activate the public and you activate the public and you get them to see what's happening in these clinical trials, what the data's been saying, what the opportunities are with psychedelics, and then they start calling their members of Congress and saying, Hey, there is this.

Melissa Lavasani: Bill sitting in Congress and why haven't you signed onto it? And that political pressure, uh, when used the right way can be really powerful. So, um, I think, you know, now we're at this really amazing moment where we have a good amount of congressional offices that are familiar enough with psychedelics that they're willing to move on it.

Melissa Lavasani: Um, there's another larger group, uh, that is familiar with psychedelics and will assist and co-sponsor legislation, but there's still so many offices that we haven't been able to get to just 'cause like we don't have all the time in the world and all the manpower in the world to [00:58:00] do it. But, you know, that is one avenue is like the advocates can speak to the, the lawmakers, the experts speak to the lawmakers, and we not, we want the public engaged in this, you know, ultimately, like that's.

Melissa Lavasani: Like the best form of harm reduction is having an informed public. So we are not, they're not seeing these media headlines of like, oh, this miracle cure that, um, saved my family. It's like, yes, that can happen psychedelics. I mean, person speaking personally, psychedelics did save my family. But what you miss out of that story is the incredible amount of work I put into myself and put into my mental health to this day to maintain, um, like myself, my, my own agency and like be the parent that I wanna be and be the spouse that I wanna be.

Melissa Lavasani: So, um, we, we need to continue to share these stories and we need to continue to collaborate to get this message out because we're all, we're all in the same boat right now. We all want the same things. We want patients to have safe and [00:59:00] affordable access to psychedelic assisted care. Um, and, uh. We're just in the beginning here, so, um, sign up for our newsletter and we can sign up on our website and then follow us on social media.

Melissa Lavasani: And, um, I anticipate more and more events, um, happening with PMC and hopefully we can scale up some of these events to be much more public facing, um, as this issue grows. So, um, I'm really excited about the future and I'm, I've been enjoying this partnership with Mission Within. Jay is such a professional and, and it really shows up when he needs to show up and, um, I look forward to more of that in the future.

Joe Moore: Fantastic. And Jay, how can people follow along and support mission within Foundation?

Jay Kopelman: Yeah, again, social media is gonna be a good way to do that. So we, we are also pretty heavily engaged on LinkedIn and on Instagram. Um, I do [01:00:00] share, uh, a bit of my own stuff as well. On social media. So we have social media pages for Mission within Foundation, and we have a LinkedIn page for mission within foundation.

Jay Kopelman: I have my own profiles on both of those as well where people can follow along. Um, one of the other things you know that would probably help get more attention for this is if the general public was more aware of the numbers of professional athletes who are also now pursuing. I began specifically to help treat their traumatic brain injuries and the chronic traumatic encephalopathy that they've, uh, suffered as a result of their time in professional sports or even college sports.

Jay Kopelman: And, you know. I people worship these athletes, and I [01:01:00] think that if more of them, like Robert Gall, were more outspoken about these treatments and the healing properties that they've provided them, that it would get even more attention. Um, I think though what Melissa said, you know, I don't wanna parrot anything she just said because she said it perfectly Right.

Jay Kopelman: And I'd just be speaking to hear myself talk. Um, but being collaborative the way that we are with PMC and with Melissa is I think, the way to move the needle on this overall. And like she said, if she could get more groups involved in, in these discussions, it would, it would do wonders for us.

Joe Moore: Well, thank you both so much for your hard work out there. I always appreciate it when people are showing up and doing this important, [01:02:00] sometimes boring and tedious, but nevertheless sometimes, sometimes exciting work. And um, so yeah, just thank you both and thank you both for showing up here to psychedelics today to join us and I hope we can continue to support you all in the future.

Jay Kopelman: Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. It's a pleasure being with you today and with Melissa, of course, always

Melissa Lavasani: appreciate the time and space.

Joe Moore: Thanks.

Enamory is a clinical practice, training institute, and nonprofit research organization focused on psychedelic assisted couples therapy. In this episode, clinical psychologists Chandra Kian and Kayla Knopp discuss their work integrating ketamine assisted psychotherapy with evidence based couples therapy models.

Both guests trained as academic researchers at the University of California San Diego Veterans Affairs system, where they worked on large scale couples based PTSD trials. They later co founded Enamory to continue clinical work, train therapists, and conduct research focused specifically on relationships.

Early Themes in Enamory and Couples Therapy

The conversation begins with Dr. Kian and Dr. Knopp describing their background in couples based PTSD research and how that work shaped their clinical approach.

They explain how existing couples therapy models often stall when partners cannot soften, access vulnerability, or understand each other's internal experience. Their early exposure to MDMA assisted therapy research highlighted how psychedelic states can temporarily reduce defensiveness and rigid narratives.

Fireside Project is a nonprofit that helps reduce the risks of psychedelic experiences through a free support line, coaching, education, and research. In this episode, Joshua White speaks with Psychedelics Today about why real-time support matters, what it takes to run a national hotline, and what Fireside learned after more than 30,000 conversations since launch.

White shares how his background as a lawyer and his early hotline volunteering shaped Fireside's model. He also describes how festival harm reduction work, including lessons from Zendo-style support spaces, revealed a major gap: people often need help during an experience and after it ends.

A major focus of the conversation is Lucy, Fireside's new voice-to-voice role-play simulator designed to improve psychedelic support skills through low-stakes practice.

Early Themes With Fireside Project

Joshua White introduces Fireside Project as an accessible safety net for people who are actively having psychedelic experiences or processing past ones. The support line launched on April 14, 2021, and relies on trained community volunteers who commit to a year of service.

White explains why anonymity matters. He argues that a phone-based container can make it easier for callers to share vulnerable material without fear of judgment. He also frames service as a key part of integration for volunteers who want to give back or prepare for work in the psychedelic field.

Core Insights From Fireside Project

White describes the early difficulty of building Fireside from scratch, including legal design, insurance hurdles, training development, and fundraising. He credits seed support from David Bronner and Dr. Bronner's for helping Fireside prove that people would actually use a psychedelic support line.

He also explains a key harm reduction point: calling emergency services during a non-medical psychedelic crisis can escalate risk. Fireside aims to help people regulate, re-orient, and stay safer when panic or fear shows up.

Key concepts discussed include:

• The thin line between healing and traumatizing during high-intensity psychedelic states
• Why callers often need connection, not rescue
• How volunteer capacity and call volume shape how long conversations run
• The difference between support during an experience and longer-term coaching support

Later Discussion and Takeaways With Fireside Project

The conversation then turns to Lucy, a training tool White describes as a "flight simulator" for psychedelic practitioners. Lucy is not part of the live support line. Instead, it offers emotionally responsive role-play scenarios so trainees can practice staying grounded, tracking consent and boundaries, and responding to crisis cues.

White also addresses recording and consent. He argues Fireside needs strong training feedback loops to improve safety and quality. He describes an anonymization approach designed to remove phone numbers, strip identifying details, and distort voices while preserving emotional tone. He also explains the post-call option for callers to delete their recorded conversation.

Practical takeaways include:

• Simulation can help trainees stay regulated when intense material emerges
• Better training can reduce unnecessary diversion to emergency rooms
• Clear consent language and easy deletion workflows matter for trust
• Coaching can expand the continuum of psychedelic support beyond therapy

Manvir Singh joins Psychedelics Today to unpack what shamanism means and why the term matters now. Singh is an anthropologist and author of Shamanism: The Timeless Religion. He argues that shamanism is not limited to "remote" societies or the past. Instead, it reliably reappears because it helps humans manage uncertainty, illness, and the unknown.

This episode is relevant for the psychedelic community because "shaman" often gets used loosely, or avoided entirely. Singh offers a clear framework for talking about shamanic practice without leaning on romantic myths, drug-centered assumptions, or rigid definitions that do not fit the cross-cultural record.

Early Themes With Manvir Singh

Early in the conversation, Manvir Singh explains why many classic definitions of shamanism break down when tested across cultures, including in Siberia where the term originated. He discusses how popular images of shamanism often center "soul flight" and fixed cosmologies. However, ethnography shows more variation, including possession, spirit proximity, and different ways practitioners describe altered experience.

Singh also traces his path into anthropology, including long-term fieldwork with the Mentawai people off the west coast of Sumatra. There, he studied ritual specialists known as kerei and saw how central they are to healing, ceremony, and community life.

Core Insights From Manvir Singh

At the center of the episode, Manvir Singh offers a practical three-part definition. He emphasizes these shared traits as the "beating heart" of shamanism across many settings:

• A non-ordinary state (trance, ecstasy, or another altered mode)

• Engagement with unseen beings or realities (spirits, gods, ancestors, witches, ghosts)

• Services such as healing and divination

Singh also explores taboo, restriction, and "otherness." He explains how shamans often cultivate social and psychological distance through initiations, deprivation, and visible markers. This helps communities experience the practitioner as different in kind, which increases credibility when the practitioner claims access to hidden forces.

Later Discussion and Takeaways With Manvir Singh

Later, Manvir Singh challenges common psychedelic narratives that treat psychedelics as the universal engine of religion or shamanism. He notes that many shamanic traditions do not rely on psychedelics at all, and that rhythmic music, drumming, dance, and social ritual can reliably produce trance states.

He also clarifies a key mismatch in many contemporary "ayahuasca tourism" settings: in many traditional contexts, the specialist takes the substance to work on behalf of the patient, rather than turning the participant into the primary visionary practitioner.

Practical takeaways for the psychedelic field include:

• Use definitions that fit cross-cultural evidence, not marketing language.

• Avoid assuming psychedelics are required for mystical experience.

• Notice how authority gets built through ritual, training, and otherness, not only through pharmacology.

Oli Genn-Bash (Brighton, UK) joins Joe Moore for a grounded conversation on the boom in functional mushrooms and why the category may be moving too quickly. As the founder of The Fungi Consultant, Oli works with consumers and brands to demystify functional mushrooms, with a focus on education, traceability, and realistic expectations.

The conversation begins with a critique of wellness hype cycles. Oli explains how consumer desperation for help with anxiety, sleep, stress, and cognition can create an opening for a rapid wave of products that are not always grounded in careful sourcing or clear science. Using lion's mane as a case study, he contrasts popular cognitive claims with traditional use, arguing that the most useful path forward is to slow down, get more literate about mechanisms, and build a market that can sustain trust over time.

Systems and Culture

Oli describes how individual health is inseparable from community realities, including food access, class dynamics, and what wellness advice can sound like when it lands from a place of privilege. They discuss mycelial thinking as a practical framework for collaboration and resource-sharing, and why mushrooms tend to attract unusually generous "teach everyone" communities.

They also explore the role of mushrooms in meaning-making and consciousness. Oli shares personal reflections on mushrooms as allies, the felt sense of "agency" in psychedelic experiences, and how those experiences can encourage behavioral change without forcing it. The conversation touches on alcohol culture in the UK and the possibility of non-alcoholic alternatives, including how functional mushrooms, microdosing, and other botanicals can support social confidence and energy for some people.

Finally, they look ahead at fungal innovation beyond supplements: materials, soil health, regenerative approaches, bioremediation, and what the broader psychedelic movement might learn from fungi's patience, symbiosis, and balance.

Key themes and takeaways

1) Why functional mushrooms feel "too fast" right now

Oli argues that functional mushrooms have accelerated into a high-pressure wellness marketplace, with brands rushing products to market and consumers struggling to determine what is legitimate, traceable, and effective. He draws parallels to the UK CBD market, describing how oversaturation and inconsistent quality can erode trust and collapse prices.

2) Lion's mane, tradition, and mechanism

Lion's mane is a useful example of how modern marketing can outrun nuance. Oli notes the gap between popular cognitive claims and traditional use, and points toward the gut-brain axis as one plausible bridge that requires more careful explanation and patience.

3) "Functional mushrooms" as a frame

Oli prefers the term functional mushrooms over medicinal mushrooms, emphasizing systems-level support rather than a pharmaceutical model. He describes a view of health that starts on the cellular level and asks what supports function, resilience, and prevention.

4) Health is individual and collective

Oli speaks candidly about barriers to wellness in the UK, including food poverty, access to education about cooking, and how class dynamics shape what health messaging sounds like. The broader point is structural: it is difficult to talk about supplements without considering the baseline conditions of daily life.

5) Mycelial thinking, futures work, and collaboration

The conversation highlights "mycelial thinking" as more than a metaphor. Oli describes collaborations in futures-oriented communities and how fungal logic can inform collaboration, non-zero-sum outcomes, and resource sharing.

6) Mushroom culture and the instinct to share

Joe notes how strikingly generous mushroom communities can be, especially around cultivation and identification. Oli agrees and adds a provocative angle: the possibility of "agency" in fungi and a sense that mushrooms invite humans into relationship, curiosity, and participation.

7) Alcohol culture and alternatives

Oli reflects on nearly three years without alcohol and describes how functional mushrooms and other botanicals can support mood, energy, and social confidence for some people. They also discuss the realities of events culture, including the need for more inclusive non-alcoholic options and sensitivity to addiction histories.

8) The next 10 years of fungi

They look at the expansion of fungi into materials, fashion, regenerative agriculture, soil health, and bioremediation. Oli emphasizes balance: fungal innovations are promising, but scaling and real-world constraints matter.

9) What the psychedelic movement can learn from fungi

Oli critiques extractive, capital-driven dynamics in the psychedelic ecosystem and suggests fungi offer a different ethic: patience, humility, symbiosis, and realism about parasitism and imbalance.

In this live episode, Tricia Eastman joins to discuss Seeding Consciousness: Plant Medicine, Ancestral Wisdom, Psychedelic Initiation. She explains why many Indigenous initiatory systems begin with consultation and careful assessment of the person, often using divination and lineage-based diagnostic methods before anyone enters ceremony. Eastman contrasts that with modern frameworks that can move fast, rely on short trainings, or treat the medicine as a stand-alone intervention.

Early Themes: Ritual, Preparation, and the Loss of Container

Eastman describes her background, including ancestral roots in Mexico and her later work at Crossroads Ibogaine in Mexico, where she supported early ibogaine work with veterans. She frames her broader work as cultural bridging that seeks respect rather than fetishization, and assimilation into modern context rather than appropriation.

Early discussion focuses on:

• Why initiatory traditions emphasize purification, preparation, and long timelines
• Why consultation matters before any high-intensity medicine work
• How decades of training shaped traditional initiation roles
• Why people can get harmed when they treat medicine as plug and play

Core Insights: Alchemy, Shadow, and Doing the Work

A major throughline is Eastman's critique of the belief that a psychedelic alone will erase trauma. She argues that shadow work remains part of the human condition, and that healing is less about a one-time fix and more about building capacity for relationship with the unconscious. Using alchemical language, she describes "nigredo" as fuel for the creative process, not as something to eliminate forever.

Key insights include:

• Psychedelics are tools, not saviors
• You cannot outsource responsibility to a pill, a modality, or a facilitator
• Progress requires practice, discipline, and honest engagement with what arises
• "Healing" often shows up as obstacles encountered while trying to live and create

Later Discussion and Takeaways: Iboga, Ethics, and Biocultural Stewardship

Joe and Tricia move into a practical and ethically complex discussion about iboga supply chains, demand pressure, and the risks of amplifying interest without matching it with harm reduction and reciprocity. Eastman emphasizes medical screening, responsible messaging, and supporting Indigenous-led stewardship efforts. She also warns that harm can come from both under-trained modern facilitators and irresponsible people claiming traditional legitimacy.

Concrete takeaways include:

• Treat iboga and ibogaine as high-responsibility work that demands safety protocols
• Avoid casual marketing that encourages risky self-administration
• Support Indigenous-led biocultural stewardship and reciprocity efforts
• Give lineage carriers a meaningful seat at the table in modern policy and clinical conversations

Frequently Asked Questions

Who is Tricia Eastman? Tricia Eastman is an author, facilitator, and founder of Ancestral Heart. Her work focuses on cultural bridging, initiation frameworks, and Indigenous-led stewardship.

What is Seeding Consciousness about? The book examines plant medicine through initiatory traditions, emphasizing consultation, ritual, preparation, and integration rather than reductionistic models.

Why does Tricia Eastman critique modern psychedelic models? She argues that many models remove the ritual container and long-form preparation that reduce risk and support deeper integration.

Is iboga or ibogaine safe? With the right oversite, yes. Eastman stresses that safety depends on cardiac screening, careful protocols, and experienced oversight. She warns against informal or self-guided use.

How can people support reciprocity and stewardship? She encourages donating or supporting Indigenous-led biocultural stewardship initiatives like Ancestral Heart and aligning public messaging with harm reduction.

Closing Thoughts

This episode makes a clear case that Tricia Eastman Seeding Consciousness is not only a book about psychedelics, but a critique of how the field is developing. Eastman argues that a successful future depends on mature containers, serious safety culture, and respectful partnership with lineage carriers, especially as interest in iboga and ibogaine accelerates.

Links

https://www.ancestralheart.com

https://www.innertraditions.com/author/tricia-eastman

Transcript Joe Moore

Hello, everybody. Welcome back. Joe Moore with you again from Psychedelics Today, joined today by Tricia Eastman. Tricia, you just wrote a book called Seeding Consciousness. We're going to get into that a bunch today, but how are you today?

[00:00:16.07] - Tricia Eastman

I'm so good. It's exciting to be live. A lot of the podcasts I do are offline, and so it's like we're being witnessed and feels like just can feel the energy behind It's great.

[00:00:31.11] - Joe Moore

It's fun. It's a totally different energy than maybe this will come out in four months. This is real, and there's people all over the world watching in real-time. And we'll get some comments. So folks, if you're listening, please leave us some comments. And we'd love to chat a little bit later about those.

[00:00:49.23] - Tricia Eastman

I'm going to join the chat so that I can see... Wait, I just want to make sure I'm able to see the comments, too. Do I hit join the chat?

[00:01:01.17] - Joe Moore

Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. I can throw comments on the screen so we can see them together.

[00:01:07.02] - Tricia Eastman

Cool.

[00:01:08.03] - Joe Moore

Yeah. So it'll be fun. Give us comments, people. Please, please, please, please. Yeah, you're all good. So Tricia, I want to chat about your book. Tell us high level about your book, and then we're going to start digging into you.

[00:01:22.10] - Tricia Eastman

So Seeding Consciousness is the title, and I know it's a long subtitled Plant Medicine, Ancestral Wisdom, Psychedelic Initiation. And I felt like it was absolutely necessary for the times that we are in right now. When I was in Gabon in 2018, in one of my many initiations, as as an initiative, the Fung lineage of Buiti, which I've been practicing in for 11 years now, I was given the instructions. I was given the integration homework to write this book. And I would say I don't see that as this divine thing, like you were given the assignment. I think I was given the assignment because it's hard as F to write a book. I mean, it really tests you on so many levels. I mean, even just thinking about putting yourself out there from a legal perspective, and then also, does it make any sense? Will anyone buy it? And on Honestly, it's not me. It's really what I was given to write, but it's based on my experience working with several thousand people over the years. And really, the essence of it is that in our society, we've taken this reductionistic approach in psychedelics, where we've really taken out the ritual.

[00:02:54.05] - Tricia Eastman

Even now with the FDA trial for MDMA for PTSD. There's even conversations with a lot of companies that are moving forward, psychedelics, through the FDA process, through that pathway, that are talking about taking the therapy out. And the reality is that in these ancient initiatic traditions, they were very long, drawn out experiences with massive purification rituals, massive amounts of different types of practice in order to prepare oneself to meet the medicine. Different plants were taken, like vomatifs and different types of purification rituals were performed. And then you would go into this profound initiatic experience because the people that were working with you that were in, we call it the Nema, who gives initiations, had decades of training and experience doing these types of initiatic experiences. So if you compare that to the modern day framework, we have people that go online and get a certificate and start serving people medicine or do it in a context where maybe there isn't even an established container or facilitator whatsoever. And so really, the idea is, how can we take the essence of this ancient wisdom wisdom, like when you look at initiation, the first step is consultation, which is really going deep into the history of the individual using different types of techniques that are Indigenous technologies, such as different forms of divination, such as cowrie shell readings.

[00:04:52.18] - Tricia Eastman

And there's different types of specific divinations that are done in different branches of And before one individual would even go into any initiation, you need to understand the person and where they're coming from. So it's really about that breakdown of all of that, and how can we integrate elements of that into a more modern framework.

[00:05:24.23] - Joe Moore

Brilliant. All right. Well, thank you for that. And let's chat about you. You've got a really interesting past, very dynamic, could even call it multicultural. And you've got a lot of experience that informed this book. So how did this stuff come forward for you?

[00:05:50.02] - Tricia Eastman

I mean, I've never been the person to seek anything. My family on my mother's side is from Mexico, from Oaxaca, Trique, Mixtec, and Michica. And we had a long lineage of practice going back to my, at least I know from my great, great grandmother, practicing a blend of mestiza, shamanism, combining centerea and Catholicism together. So it's more of like a syncratic mestiza, mestiza being mixed tradition. And so I found it really interesting because later on, when my grandfather came to the United States, he ended up joining the military. And in being in the US, he didn't really have a place. He's very devout spiritual man, but he didn't have a place to practice this blended spiritual tradition. So the mystical aspect of it went behind. And as I started reconnecting to my ancestral lineage, this came forth that I was really starting to understand the mystical aspect of my ancestry. And interestingly, at the same time, was asked to work at Crossroads Abigain in Mexico. And it's so interesting to see that Mexico has been this melting pot and has been the place where Abigain has chosen to plant its roots, so to say, and has treated thousands of veterans.

[00:07:36.28] - Tricia Eastman

I got to be part of the group of facilitators back over 10 years ago. We treated the first Navy Seals with Abogaine, and that's really spurred a major interest in Abogaine. Now it's in every headline. I also got 10 I got initiated into the Fung lineage of Buiti and have really studied the traditional knowledge. I created a nonprofit back in 2019 called Ancestral Heart, which is really focused on Indigenous-led stewardship. Really, the book helps as a culmination of the decade of real-world experience of combining My husband, Dr. Joseph Barzulia. He's a psychologist. He's also a pretty well-known published researcher in Abigain and 5MEO-DMT, but also deeply spiritual and deeply in respect for the Indigenous traditions that have carried these medicines before us. So we've really been walking this complex path of world bridging between how we establish these relationships and how we bring some of these ancient knowledge systems back into the forefront, but not in a way of fetishizing them, but in a way of deeply respecting them and what we can learn, but from our own assimilation and context versus appropriation. So really, I think the body of my work is around that cultural bridging.

[00:09:31.07] - Joe Moore

That's brilliant. And yeah, there's some really fun stuff I learned in the book so far that I want to get into later. But next question is, who is your intended audience here? Because this is an interesting book that could hit a few categories, but I'm curious to hear from you.

[00:09:49.02] - Tricia Eastman

It's so funny because when I wrote the book, I wasn't thinking, oh, what's my marketing plan? What's my pitch? Who's my intended audience? Because it was my homework, and I knew I needed to write the book, and maybe that was problematic in the sense that I had to go to publishers and have a proposal. And then I had to create a formula in hindsight. And I would say the demographic of the book mirrors the demographic of where people are in the psychedelic space, which It's skewed slightly more male, although very female. I think sex isn't necessarily important when we're thinking about the level of trauma and the level of spiritual healing and this huge deficit that we have in mental health, which is really around our disconnection from our true selves, from our heart, from our souls, from this idea of of what Indigenous knowledge systems call us the sacred. It's really more of an attitude of care and presence. I'm sure we could give it a different name so that individuals don't necessarily have any guard up because we have so much negative conditioning related to the American history of religion, which a lot of people have rejected, and some have gone back to.

[00:11:37.06] - Tricia Eastman

But I think we need to separate it outside of that. I would say the demographic is really this group of I would say anywhere from 30 to 55 male females that are really in this space where maybe they're doing some of the wellness stuff. They're starting to figure some things out, but it's just not getting them there. And when something happens in life, for example, COVID-19 would be a really great example. It knocks them off course, and they just don't have the tools to find that connection. And I would say it even spans across people that do a lot of spiritual practice and maybe are interested in what psychedelics can do in addition to those practices. Because when we look at my view on psychedelics, is they fit within a whole spectrum of wellness and self-care and any lineage of spiritual practice, whether it's yoga or Sufism or Daoist tradition. But they aren't necessarily the thing that... I think there's an over focus on the actual substance itself and putting it on a pedestal that I think is problematic in our society because it goes back to our religious context in the West is primarily exoteric, meaning that we're seeking something outside of ourselves to fulfill ourselves.

[00:13:30.29] - Tricia Eastman

And so I think that when we look at psychedelic medicines as this exoteric thing versus when we look at initiatory traditions are about inward and direct experience. And all of these spiritual practices and all of these modalities are really designed to pull you back into yourself, into having a direct relationship with yourself and direct experience. And I feel like the minute that you are able to forge that connection, which takes practice and takes discipline, then you don't need to necessarily look at all these other tools outside of yourself. It's like one of my favorite analogies is the staff on the Titanic were moving the furniture around as it was sinking, thinking that they might save the boat from sinking by moving the furniture around. I think that's how we've been with a lot of ego-driven modalities that aren't actually going into the full unconscious, which is where we need to go to have these direct experiences. Sorry for the long answer, but it is for everybody, and it's not just about psychedelics. Anyone can take something from this doing any spiritual work. But we talk a lot about the Indigenous philosophy and how that ties in alongside with spiritual practice and more of this inner way of connecting with oneself and doing the work.

[00:15:21.22] - Tricia Eastman

And I think also really not sugar coating it in the sense that the psychedelics aren't going to save us. They're not going to cure PTSD. Nothing you take will. It's you that does the work. And if you don't do the work, you're not going to have an 87 % success rate with opioid use disorder or whatever it is, 60 something % for treatment-resistant depression or whatever. It's like you have to do the work. And so we can't keep putting the power in the modality reality or the pill.

[00:16:03.18] - Joe Moore

Yeah, that makes sense. So you did an interesting thing here with this book, and it was really highlighting aspects of the alchemical process. And people don't necessarily have exposure. They hear the words alchemy. I get my shoulders go up when I hear alchemizing, like transmutation. But it's a thing. And how do we then start communicating this from Jung? I found out an interesting thing recently as an ongoing student. Carl Jung didn't necessarily have access to all that many manuscripts. There's so many alchemical manuscripts available now compared to what he had. And as a result, our understanding of alchemy has really evolved. Western alchemy, European alchemy, everybody. Perhaps Kmetic, too. I don't know. You could speak to that more. I don't keep track of what's revealed in Egypt. So it's really interesting to present that in a forward way? How has it been received so far? Or were you nervous to present this in this way?

[00:17:25.10] - Tricia Eastman

I mean, honestly, I think the most important The important thing is that in working with several thousand people over the years, people think that taking the psychedelic and the trauma is going to go away. It's always there. I mean, we We archetypically will have the shadow as long as we need the shadow to learn. And so even if we go into a journey and we transcend it, it's still there. So I would say that the The feedback has been really incredible. I mean, the people that are reading... I mean, I think because I'm weaving so many different, complex and deep concepts into one book, it might be a little harder to market. And I think the biggest bummer was that I was really trying to be respectful to my elders and not say anything in the title about Iboga and Abigain, even though I talk a lot about it in the book, and it's such a hot topic, it's really starting to take off. But the people that have read it really consider it. They really do the work. They do the practices in the book, and I'm just getting really profound feedback. So that's exciting to me because really, ultimately, alchemy...

[00:18:55.22] - Tricia Eastman

Yeah, you're right. It gets used Used a lot in marketing lingo and sitting in the depth of the tar pit. For me, when I was in Gabon, I remember times where I really had to look at things that were so dark in my family history that I didn't even realize were mine until later connected to my lineage. And the dark darkness connected to that and just feeling that and then knowing really the truth of our being is that we aren't those things. We're in this process of changing and being, and so nothing is is fixed, but there is a alchemical essence in just learning to be with it. And so not always can we just be with something. And and have it change, but there are many times that we can actually just be with those parts of ourselves and be accepting, where it's not like you have to have this intellectualized process It's just like, first you have the negrado, then you tune into the albeda, and you receive the insights, and you journal about it, and da, da, da, da, da Action, Mars aspect of it, the rubeda of the process. It's not like that at all.

[00:20:44.15] - Tricia Eastman

It's really that the wisdom that comes from it because you're essentially digesting black goo, which is metaphoric to the oil that we use to power all of society that's pulled deep out of the Earth, and it becomes gold. It becomes... And really, the way I like to think of it is like, in life, we are here to create, and we are not here to heal ourselves. So if you go to psychedelic medicine and you want to heal yourself, you're going to be in for... You're just going to be stuck and burnt out because that's not what we're here to do as human beings, and you'll never run out of things to heal. But if you You think of the negrado in alchemy as gasoline in your car. Every time you go back in, it's like refilling your gas tank. And whatever you go back in for as you're moving in the journey, it's almost like that bit of negrado is like a lump of coal that's burning in the gas tank. And that gets you to the next point to which there's another thing related to the creative process. So it's like As you're going in that process, you're going to hit these speed bumps and these obstacles in the way.

[00:22:07.29] - Tricia Eastman

And those obstacles in the way, that's the healing. So if you just get in the car in the human vehicle and you drive and you continue to pull out the shadow material and face it, you're going to keep having the steam, but not just focus on it, having that intention, having that connection to moving forward in life. And I hate to use those words because they sound so growth and expansion oriented, which life isn't always. It's evolutionary and deevolutionary. It's always in spirals. But ultimately, you're in a creative process would be the best way to orient it. So I think when we look at alchemy from that standpoint, then it's productive. Effective. Otherwise, it sounds like some brand of truffle salt or something.

[00:23:09.12] - Joe Moore

Yeah, I think it's a... If people want to dig in, amazing. It's just a way to describe processes, and it's super informative if you want to go there, but it's not necessary for folks to do the work. And I like how you framed it quite a bit. So let's see. There is one bit, Tricia, that my ears really went up on this one point about a story about Actually, let me do a tangent for you real quick, and then we're going to come back to this story. So are you familiar with the tribe, the Dogon, in Africa? Of course. Yeah. So they're a group that looks as though they were involved in Jewish and/or Egyptian traditions, and then ended up on the far side of like, what, Western Africa, far away, and had their own evolution away from Egypt and the Middle East. Fascinating. Fascinating stories, fascinating astronomy, and much more. I don't know too much about the religion. I love their masks. But this drew an analogy for me, as you were describing that the Buiti often have stories about having lineage to pre-dynastic Egyptian culture. I guess we'll call it that for now, the Kometic culture.

[00:24:44.23] - Joe Moore

I had not heard that before. Shame on me because I haven't really read any books about Buiti as a religion or organization, or anything to this point. But I found that really interesting to know that now, at least I'm aware of two groups claiming lineage to that ancient world of magic. Can you speak about that at all for us? Yeah.

[00:25:09.24] - Tricia Eastman

So first off, there really aren't any books talking about that. Some of the things I've learned from elders that I've spoke with and asked in different lineages in Masoco and in Fong Buiti, there's a few things. One, We lived in many different eras. Even if you go into ancient texts of different religions, creation stories, and biblical stories, they talk about these great floods that wiped out the planet. One of the things that Atum talks about, who is one of my Buiti fathers who passed a couple years ago, is Is the understanding that before we were in these different areas, you had Mu or Lumaria, you had Atlantis, and then you had our current timeline. And the way that consciousness was within those timelines was very different and the way the Earth was. You had a whole another continent called Atlantis that many people, even Plato, talks about a very specific location of. And what happened, I believe during that time period, Africa, at least the Saharan band of the desert was much more lush, and it was a cultural melting pot. So if you think about, for example, the Pygmy tribes, which are in Equatorial Africa, they are the ones that introduced Iboga to the Buiti.

[00:27:08.08] - Tricia Eastman

If you look at the history of ancient Egypt, what I'm told is that the Pygmies lived in Pharaonic Egypt, all the way up until Pharaonic Egypt. And there was a village. And if you look on the map in Egypt, you see a town called Bawiti, B-A-W-I-T-I. And that is the village where they lived. And I have an interesting hypothesis that the God Bess, if you look at what he's wearing, it's the exact same to a T as what the Pygmies wear. And the inspiration for which a lot of the Buiti, because they use the same symbology, because each part of the outfit, whether it's the Mocingi, which is like this animal skin, or the different feathers, they use the parrot feather as a symbology of speech and communication, all of these things are codes within the ceremony that were passed along. And so when you look at Bess, he's wearing almost the exact same outfit that the Pygmies are wearing and very similar to if you see pictures of the ceremonies of Misoko or Gonde Misoko, which I would say is one of the branches of several branches, but that are closer to the original way of Buiti of the jungle, so closer to the way the Pygmies practice.

[00:28:59.16] - Tricia Eastman

So If you look at Bess, just to back my hypothesis. So you look at Neteru. Neteru were the... They called them the gods of Egypt, and they were all giant. And many say the word nature actually means nature, but they really represented the divine qualities of nature. There's best. Look at him. And a lot of the historians said he's the God of Harmeline and children and happiness. I think he's more than the God of Harmeline, and I think that the Pygmies worked with many different plants and medicines, and really the ultimate aspect of it was freedom. If you think about liberation, like the libation, number one, that's drunkiness. Number two, liberation, you of freeing the joyous child from within, our true nature of who we are. You look at every temple in Egypt, and you look at these giant statues, and then you have this tiny little pygmy God, and there's no other gods that are like Bess. He's one of a kind. He's in his own category. You've You've got giant Hathor, you've got giant Thoth, you've got giant Osiris, Isis, and then you've got little tiny Bess. And so I think it backs this hypothesis.

[00:30:48.27] - Tricia Eastman

And my understanding from practitioners of Dogon tradition is that they also believe that their ancestors came from Egypt, and they definitely have a lot of similarity in the teachings that I've seen and been exposed to just from here. I mean, you can... There's some more modern groups, and who's to know, really, the validity of all of it. But there are some, even on YouTube, where you can see there's some more modern Dogon temples that are talking in English or English translation about the teachings, and they definitely line up with Kamehdi teachings. And so my hypothesis around that is that the Dogon are probably most likely pygmy descendants as, And the pygmy were basically run out of Bawiti because there was jealousy with the priest, because there was competition, because all of the offerings that were being made in the temple, there was a lot of power, connected to each of the temples. And there was competitiveness even amongst the different temples, lining the Nile and all of that, of who was getting the most offerings and who was getting the most visits. And so the Pygmies essentially were run out, and they migrated, some of them migrated south to Gabon and Equatorial Africa.

[00:32:43.07] - Tricia Eastman

And then If you think about the physical changes that happened during these planetary catastrophes, which we know that there had been more than one based on many historical books. So that whole area went through a desertification process, and the Equatorial rainforest remained. So it's highly likely even that Iboga, at one point, grew in that region as well.

[00:33:18.00] - Joe Moore

Have you ever seen evidence of artwork depicting Iboga there in Egypt?

[00:33:24.17] - Tricia Eastman

There are several different death temples. I'm trying to remember the name of the exact one that I went to, but on the columns, it looked like Iboga trees that were carved into the columns. And I think what's interesting about this... So Seychet is the divine scribe, the scribe of Egyptian wisdom. And she was basically, essentially the sidekick of Thoth. Thoth was who brought a lot of the ancient wisdom and people like Pythagoras and many of the ancient philosophers in Roman times went and studied in a lot of these Thoth lineage mystery schools. When you look at the the river of the Nile on the east side, east is the energy liturgy of initiation. It's always like if you go into a sweat lodge or if you see an ancient temple, usually the doorway is facing the east. West is where the sun sets, and so that's the death. And what's interesting about that is that it was on the west side in the death temple that you would see these aboga plants. But also Seixat was the one who was the main goddess depicted in the hieroglyphs, and there was other hieroglyphs. I mean, if you look at the hieroglyphs of Seixat, it looks like she has a cannabis leaf above her head, and a lot of people have hypothesized that, that it's cannabis.

[00:35:16.03] - Tricia Eastman

Of course, historians argue about that. And then she's also carrying a little vessel that looks like it has some mushrooms in it. And obviously, she has blue Lotus. Why would she be carrying around blue Lotus and mushrooms? I don't know. It sounds like some initiation.

[00:35:36.19] - Joe Moore

Yeah, I love that. Well, thanks so much for going there with me. This photo of Seixet. There's some good animations, but everybody just go look at the temple carvings picturing this goddess. It's stunning. And obviously, cannabis. I think it's hard to argue not. I've seen all these like, mushroom, quote, unquote, mushroom things everywhere. I'm like, Yeah, maybe. But this is like, Yes, that's clear.

[00:36:06.27] - Tricia Eastman

And if you look at what she's wearing, it's the exact same outfit as Bess, which is classic Basically, how the medicine woman or medicine man or what you would call shaman, the outfit that the healers would wear, the shamans or the oracles, those of the auracular arts, different forms of divination would wear. So if you really follow that and you see, Oh, what's Isis wearing? What's Hathor wearing? What's Thoth wearing? You can tell she's very specifically the healer. And it's interesting because they call her the divine scribe. So she's actually downloading, my guess is she's taking plants and downloading from the primordial.

[00:37:02.00] - Joe Moore

Well, okay. Thanks for bringing that up. That was a lovely part of your book, was your... There's a big initiation sequence, and then you got to go to this place where you could learn many things. Could you speak to that a little bit? And I hope that's an okay one to bring up.

[00:37:22.22] - Tricia Eastman

Are you talking about the time that I was in initiation and I went to the different ashrams, the different realms in, like Yogananda calls them astral schools that you go and you just download? It seemed like astral schools, but it seemed like it was a Bwiti initiation, where you were in silence for three days, and then Yeah, that one. So there were several different... I mean, I've done seven official initiations, and then I've had many other initiatic experiences. And I would say this one was incredible. Incredibly profound because what it showed me first was that all of the masters of the planet, it was showing me everyone from Kurt Cobain to Bob Marley to Einstein, all the people that had some special connection to an intelligence that was otherworldly, that they were essentially going to the same place, like they were visiting the same place, and they would go. And so the first thing I noticed was that I recognized a lot of people, and current, I'm not going I don't want to say names of people, but I recognize people that are alive today that I would say are profound thinkers that were going to these places as well.

[00:38:57.05] - Tricia Eastman

And interestingly, then I was taken into one of the classrooms, and in the classroom, this one, specifically, it showed me that you could download any knowledge instantaneously That essentially, having a connection to that school allowed you to download music or understand very complex ideas ideas of mathematics or physics or science that would take people like lifetimes to understand. So it was essentially showing this. And a lot of people might discredit that, that that might be a specific... That we as humans can do that. Well, I'm not saying that it's not that. I don't I don't want to say that it's anything. But what I can say is that I have definitely noticed the level of access that I have within my consciousness. And also what I notice with the masters of Bwiti, specifically in terms of the level of intelligence that they're accessing and that it's different. It's got a different quality to it. And so it was a really profound teaching. And one of the things, too, that I've learned is I use it to help me learn specific things. I don't know if I can give a positive testimonial, but I am learning French.

[00:40:55.00] - Tricia Eastman

And I noticed when I was in Aspen at the Abigain meeting, and I was with Mubeiboual, who speaks French, I started saying things French that I didn't even realize that I knew to say. I've had these weird moments where I'm actually using this tool And I'm also using it. I have a Gabonese harp. I don't know if you can see it up on the shelf over there. But I also went and asked for some help with downloading some assistance in the harp, then we'll see how that goes.

[00:41:38.17] - Joe Moore

Yeah. So that's brilliant. I'm thinking of other precedent for that outside of this context, and I can think of a handful. So I love that, like savant syndrome. And then there's a classic text called Ars Notoria that helps accelerate learning, allegedly. And then there's a number of other really interesting things that can help us gain these bits of wisdom and knowledge. And it does feel a little bit like the Dogon. The story I get is the receiving messages from the dog star, and therefore have all sorts of advanced information that they shouldn't we call it. Yeah. Yeah, which is fascinating. We have that worldwide. I think there's plenty of really interesting stuff here. So what I appreciated, Tricia, about how you're structuring your book, or you did structure your book, is that it it seems at the same time, a memoir, on another hand, workbook, like here are some exercises. On the other hand, like here's some things you might try in session. I really appreciated that. It was like people try to get really complicated when we talk about things like IFS. I'm like, well, you don't necessarily have to. You could. Or is this just a human thing, a human way to look at working with our parts?

[00:43:20.15] - Joe Moore

I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about the way you were approaching this parts work in your book versus how complicated some people make it feel?

[00:43:30.00] - Tricia Eastman

Yeah. I find that this is just my personal opinion, and no way to discredit Richard Schwartz's work. But parts work has existed in shamanism since forever. When we really look at even in ancient Egypt, Issus, she put Osiris act together. That was the metaphorical story of soul retrieval, which is really the spiritual journey of us reclaiming these pieces of ourselves that we've been disconnected from a society level or individually. And within the context of parts work, it's very organic and it feels other worldly. It's not like there's ever a force where I'm in the process with someone. And a lot of times I would even go into the process with people because they weren't accustomed to how to work with Iboga or game, and so they would be stuck. And then the minute I was like, you know, Iboga, in the tradition, it's really about... It's like the game Marco Polo. It's call and response. And so you're really an active participant, and you're supposed to engage with the spirits. And so the minute that things would show up, it'd be more about like, oh, what do you see? What's coming up here? Asking questions about it, being curious.

[00:45:17.07] - Tricia Eastman

If you could engage with it, sometimes there's processes where you can't really engage with things at all. So everything that I'm talking about is It was organically shown up as an active engagement process that it wasn't like we were going in. There have been some where you can guide a little bit, but you never push. It might be something like, go to your house, and it being completely unattached. And if they can't go there, then obviously the psyche doesn't want to go there, but it's really an exercise to help them to connect to their soul. And then in contrast, IFS is like, let's work on these different parts and identify these different parts of ourselves. But then let's give them fixed titles, and let's continually in a non-altered state of consciousness, not when we're meditating, not when we're actively in a state where we have the plasticity to change the pathway in the unconscious mind, but we're working in the egoic mind, and we're talking to these parts of ourselves. That could be helpful in the day-to-day struggles. Let's say you have someone who has a lot of rumination or a very active mind to have something to do with that.

[00:46:57.01] - Tricia Eastman

But that's not going to be the end-all, be-all solution to their problem. It's only moving the deck chairs around on the Titanic because you're still working in the framework where, I'm sorry, the Titanic is still sinking, and it may or may not be enough. It may or may not produce a reliable outcome that could be connected with some level of true relief and true connection within oneself. And so I think that people just... I feel like they almost get a little too... And maybe it's because we're so isolated and lonely, it's like, Oh, now I've got parts. I'm not by myself. I've got my fire I've got my firefighter, and I've got my guardian, and all these things. And I definitely think that IFS is a really great initiator into the idea of engaging with parts of ourselves and how to talk to them. But I don't think it's... And I think doing a session here and there, for some people, can be incredibly helpful, but to all of a sudden incorporate it in like a dogma is toxic. It's dangerous. And that's what we have to be really careful of.

[00:48:23.25] - Joe Moore

So thank you for that. There's a complicated discussion happening at the Aspen meeting. I think I was only sitting maybe 30 feet away from you. Sorry, I didn't say hi. But the folks from Blessings of the Forest were there, and I got a chance to chat with a number of them and learn more about nuclear protocols, biopiracy, literal piracy, and smuggling, and the works. I'm curious. This is a really complicated question, and I'm sorry for a complicated question this far in. But it's like, as we talk about this stuff publicly and give it increased profile, we are de facto giving more juice and energy to black markets to pirate. We're adding fuel to this engine that we don't necessarily want to see. Cameroon has nothing left, pretty much. From what I'm told, people from Cameroon are coming in, stealing it from Cabona, bringing it back, and then shipping it out. And there's It's like a whole worldwide market for this stuff. I witnessed it. This stuff. Yeah, right? This is real. So the people, the Buiti, and certain Gabanese farmers, are now being pirated. And international demand does not care necessarily about Nagoya compliance. United States didn't sign Nagoya protocol for this biopiracy protection, but we're not the only violator of these ethics, right?

[00:50:00.22] - Joe Moore

It's everywhere. So how do we balance thinking about talking about IBOCA publicly, given that there's no clean way to get this stuff in the United States that is probably not pirated materials? And as far as I know, there's only one, quote unquote, Nagoya compliant place. I've heard stories that I haven't shared publicly yet, that there's other groups that are compliant, too. But it's a really interesting conversation, and I'm curious of your perspectives there.

[00:50:34.04] - Tricia Eastman

I mean, this is a very long, drawn-out question, so forgive me if I give you a long, drawn-out answer.

[00:50:41.01] - Joe Moore

Go for it.

[00:50:41.26] - Tricia Eastman

It's all good. So in reality, I do believe... You know the first Ebo, Abogaine, that was done in the country was experiments on eight Black prisoners at a hospital under the MK program.

[00:51:01.16] - Joe Moore

Pre-lutz off, we were doing Abogaine tests on people.

[00:51:06.00] - Tricia Eastman

Yeah, so pre-Lutz off. I have a hypothesis, although a lot of people would already know me.

[00:51:12.07] - Joe Moore

No, I didn't know that. Thank you for sharing that with me.

[00:51:14.13] - Tricia Eastman

That's great. I'll send you some stuff on that. But the Aboga wanted to be here. The Abogaine wanted to be here. I think it's a complex question because on one side of the coin, you have the spirit of plants, which are wild and crazy sometimes. And then you have the initiatory traditions, which create a scaffolding to essentially put the lightning in a bottle, so to say, so that it's less damaging.

[00:51:51.13] - Joe Moore

It's almost like a temple structure around it.

[00:51:53.16] - Tricia Eastman

I like that. Yeah. Put a temple structure around it because it's like, yeah, you can work with new nuclear energy, but you have to wear gloves, you have to do all these different safety precautions. I would say that that's why these traditions go hand in hand with the medicine. So some people might say that the agenda of Iboga and even Abogaine might be a different agenda than the Buiti. And ultimately, whether we are Indigenous or not, the Earth belongs to everyone. It's capitalism and the patriarchy that created all these borders and all these separations between people. And in reality, we still have to acknowledge what the essence of Buiti is, which is really the cause and effect relationship that we have with everything that we do. And so some people might use the term karma. And that is if you're in Abogaine clinic and you're putting a bunch of videos out online, and that's spurring a trend on TikTok, which we already know is a big thing where people are selling illegal market, iBoga, is Is any of that your responsibility? Yes. And if I was to sit down with a kogi kagaba, which are the mamus from Colombia, or if I were to sit down with a who said, Hey, let's do a divination, and let's ask some deep questions about this.

[00:53:54.01] - Tricia Eastman

It would look at things on a bigger perspective than just like, Oh, this person is completely responsible for this. But when we're talking about a medicine that is so intense, and when I was younger, when I first met the medicine, I first was introduced in 2013 was when I first found out about Abigain and Iboga. And in 2014, I lived with someone who lived with a 14th generation Misoko, maybe it was 10th generation Misoco in Costa Rica. And then he decided to just start serving people medicine. And he left this person paralyzed, one person that he treated for the rest of his life. And Aubrey Marcus, it was his business partner for On It, and he's publicly talked about this, about the story behind this. If you go into his older podcasts and blog posts and stuff, he talks about the situation. And the reality is that this medicine requires a massive amount of responsibility. It has crazy interactions, such as grapefruit juice, for example, and all kinds of other things. And so it's not just the responsibility towards the buiti, it's also the responsibility of, does me talking about this without really talking about the safety and the risks, encourage other people.

[00:55:49.10] - Tricia Eastman

One of the big problems, back in the day, I went to my first guita conference, Global Abogaine Therapy Alliance in 2016. And And then, ISEARs was debating because there was all these people buying Abogaine online and self-detoxing and literally either dying or ending up in the hospital. And they're like, should we release protocols and just give people instructions on how to do this themselves? And I was like, no, absolutely not. We need to really look at the fact that this is an initiatory tradition, that it's been practiced for thousands of that the minimum level at which a person is administering in Gabon is 10 years of training. The way that we've made up for those mistakes, or sorry, not mistakes, lack of training is that we've used medical oversight. Most of the medical oversight that we've received has been a result of mistakes that were made in the space. The first patient that MAPS treated, they killed them because they gave them way over the amount of what milligrams per kilogram of Abigain that you should give somebody. Every single mistake that was made, which a lot of them related to loss of life, became the global Abogane Therapy Safety Guidelines.

[00:57:28.19] - Tricia Eastman

And so we've already learned from our mistakes here. And so I think it's really important that we understand that there's that aspect, which is really the blood on our hands of if we're not responsible, if we're encouraging people to do this, and we're talking about it in a casual way on Instagram. Like, yeah, microdosing. Well, did you know there was a guy prosecuted this last year, personal trainer, who killed someone And from microdosing in Colorado, the event happened in 2020, but he just got sentenced early 2025. These are examples that we need to look at as a collective that we need. So that's one side of it. And then the other side of it is the reciprocity piece. And the reciprocity piece related to that is, again, the cause and effect. Is A Abogaine clinic talking about doing Abogaine and doing video testimonials, spurring the efforts that are actively being made in Gabon to protect the cultural lineage and to protect the medicine. The reality is every Abogaine clinic is booked out for... I heard the next year, I don't know if that's fact or fiction, but someone told me for a year, because because of all the stuff with all the celebrities that are now talking about it.

[00:59:05.20] - Tricia Eastman

And then on top of that, you have all these policy, all these different advocacy groups that are talking about it. Essentially, it's not going to be seven... It's going to be, I would say, seven to 10 years before something gets through the FDA. We haven't even done a phase one safety trial for any of the Abigain that's being commercialized. And even if there's some magic that happens within the Trump administration in the next two years that changes the rules to fast track it, it's not going to cut it down probably more than a year. So then you're looking at maybe six years minimum. That whole time, all that strain is being put on Gabon. And so if you're not supporting Gabon, what's happening is it's losing a battle because the movement is gaining momentum, and Gabon cannot keep up with that momentum. It's a tiny country the size of Colorado. So my belief is that anyone who's benefiting from all the hype around Iboga and Abogayne or personally benefited with healing within themselves should be giving back, either to Ancestral Heart, to Blessings of the Forest, to any group that is doing authentic Indigenous-led biocultural stewardship work.

[01:00:45.21] - Joe Moore

Thanks for that. It's important that we get into some detail here. I wish we had more time to go further on it.

[01:00:54.17] - Tricia Eastman

I'll do a quick joke. I know. I have a lot.

[01:00:57.17] - Joe Moore

Yes. Now do Mike Tyson. Kidding. Yeah. So what did we maybe miss that you want to make sure people hear about your book, any biocultural stuff that you want to get out there? You can go for a few more minutes, too, if you have a few things you want to say.

[01:01:20.03] - Tricia Eastman

I mean, really, thank you so much for this opportunity. Thank you for caring and being so passionate about the context related to Buiti, which I think is so important. I would just say that I've been working with this medicine for... I've known about it for 13 years, and I've been working with it for 11 years, and this is my life. I've devoted my life to this work, me and my husband, both. And there isn't anything greater of a blessing that it has brought in our life, but it also is it's a very saturnian energy, so it brings chaos. It brings the deepest challenges and forces you to face things that you need to face. But also on the other side of the coin, everything that I've devoted and given back in service to this work has exponentially brought blessing in my life. So again, I see the issue with people doing these shortened processes, whether it's in an Abigain clinic where you just don't have the ritualistic sacred aspects of an initiatic context and really the rituals that really help integrate and ground the medicine. But you still have this opportunity to continue to receive the blessings.

[01:03:09.23] - Tricia Eastman

And I really feel in our current psychedelic movement, we essentially have a Bugatti. These medicines are the most finely-tuned sports car that can do every... Even more than that, more like a spaceship. We have this incredible tool, but we're driving it in first gear. We don't even really know how to operate it. It's like, well, I guess you could say flight of the Navigator, but that was a self-driving thing, and I guess, psychedelics are self-driving. But I feel that we are discounting ourselves so greatly by not looking into our past of how these medicines were used. I really think the biggest piece around that is consulting the genuine lineage carriers like Buiti elders, like Mubu Bwal, who's the head of Maganga Manan Zembe, And giving them a seat at the head of the table, really, because there's so much I know in my tradition, about what we do to bring cardiac safety. And why is it that people aren't dying as much in Gabon as they're dying in Abigan clinics.

[01:04:37.28] - Joe Moore

Shots fired. All right. I like it. Thank you. Thank you for everything you've done here today, I think harm reduction is incredibly important. Let's stop people dying out there. Let's do some harm reduction language. I actually was able to sweet talk my way into getting a really cool EKG recently, which I thought really great about. If you can speak clinician, you can go a long way sometimes.

[01:05:11.20] - Tricia Eastman

Yeah. Oh, no, go ahead. Sorry.

[01:05:15.17] - Joe Moore

No, that's all. That's all. So harm reduction is important. How do we keep people safe? How do we keep healing people? And thank you for all your hard work.

[01:05:27.22] - Tricia Eastman

Thank you. I really appreciate it. We're all figuring it out. No one's perfect. So I'm not trying to fire any shots at anybody. I'm just like, Guys, please listen. We need to get in right relationship with the medicine. And we need to include these stakeholders. And on the other side of the coin, I just want to add that there's a lot of irresponsible, claimed traditional practitioners that are running retreat centers in Mexico and Costa Rica and other places that are also causing a lot of harm, too. So the medical monitoring is definitely, if you're going to do anything, Because these people don't have the training, the worst thing you could do is not have someone going in blind that doesn't have training and not have had an EKG and all that stuff. But we've got a long way to go, and I'm excited to help support in a productive way, all coming together. And that's what me and Joseph have been devoted to.

[01:06:45.02] - Joe Moore

Brilliant. Tricia Eastman, thank you so much. Everybody should go check out your book Seeding Consciousness out now. The audiobook's lovely, too. Thank you so much for being here. And until next time.

[01:07:00.14] - Tricia Eastman

Thank you.

Logan Davidson joins the show to talk about the fast-moving world of Ibogaine in American and why state-based leadership is shaping the future of psychedelic reform. Davidson is the executive director of Texans for Greater Mental Health, the legislative director at VETS, and a key strategist behind Texas' landmark interest in ibogaine research. He also advises for Americans for Ibogaine. His work sits at the intersection of science, policy, and lived experience, and this conversation offers a clear look into what is happening right now.

Early Themes: The Rise of State Advocacy

Davidson explains how he entered politics at nineteen and how his professional path merged with psychedelic policy work during the 2021 Texas legislative session. Through that first bill, he saw how science, bipartisan cooperation, and strong local leadership could advance major reform.

Early discussion focuses on:

• How Texas became the first state to pass a major psychedelic research bill
• Why ibogaine became a central focus
• How the special operations community helped shift political momentum
• The personal mental health stories that shaped Davidson's commitment

This section also highlights how Americans for Ibogaine entered the conversation through veterans, researchers, and state lawmakers who felt the urgency of the opioid crisis and traumatic brain injury.

Core Insights: Ibogaine, Risk, and the New Research Model

In the middle portion of the episode, Davidson breaks down the strategy, challenges, and promise behind ibogaine research and state-based policy innovation.

Key insights include:

• The unique bipartisan environment in Texas
• Why stories from veterans and spouses moved lawmakers
• The importance of medical screening for cardiac risk
• Why research is essential for safety
• How states can use funding, revenue sharing, and public health goals to shape future access

What policymakers are watching right now

• Effectiveness for opioid use disorder
• Data from traumatic brain injury studies
• Cardiac safety protocols
• The risk of untreated depression and addiction
• The national security implications of forcing service members to seek illegal care

Davidson also explains why removing the psychedelic experience from the molecule remains controversial and why many researchers believe the full experience matters.

Later Discussion and Takeaways: The Road Ahead for American Ibogaine

In the final part of the conversation, Davidson speaks about the future of American Ibogaine and the broader psychedelic field. He outlines why local leadership matters, why federal funding, like what Psychedelic Medicine Coalition is supporting, could be the next major tipping point, and how big pharmaceutical companies may eventually enter the space through acquisitions or proprietary molecule development.

Concrete takeaways include:

• States should expect clear benefits: lower-cost treatments, shared revenue, and local control
• Community leaders, not outsiders, often drive legislative wins
• The need for long-term safety data remains
• National security concerns highlight why regulated access must expand
• Federal research money could radically transform the pace and scale of studies

He also encourages listeners to join or build local organizations, since nearly every major win comes from people who live in the state pushing from the ground up.

Frequently Asked Questions Is Ibogaine safe?

Ibogaine has cardiac risks that require medical screening and careful monitoring. Researchers stress that safety improves with proper protocols and more clinical data.

Why is Ibogaine important for veterans?

Many special operations veterans report major benefits for traumatic brain injury, PTSD, and addiction. Their stories have driven political momentum.

How are states involved in Ibogaine research?

States like Texas are funding clinical trials, drug development, shaping policy, and exploring revenue and access models to support long-term public health benefits.

Will Ibogaine become federally supported in America?

New federal interest, including major grants and bipartisan discussions, suggests that broader support may be coming in the next few years.

Closing Thoughts

This episode shows why the work of Logan Davidson sits at the center of today's psychedelic resurgence. It highlights a complex but hopeful moment where science, policy, and lived experience are beginning to align. As American Ibogaine research expands, state leaders, clinicians, veterans, and advocates all have a role in shaping a safer and more effective future for these treatments.

In this episode, Michael Sapiro joins Kyle Buller to explore truth, healing, and psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy through the lens of his new book, Truth Medicine. A clinical psychologist, ordained Zen Buddhist monk, retreat leader, and fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, he blends Buddhist psychology, trauma work, and consciousness studies. The discussion focuses on how people discover and live their truth, and why that truth becomes the core medicine in healing.

Early in the Podcast with Michael Sapiro

Michael describes how years of clinical work and retreat facilitation shaped his understanding of healing. Real transformation happens when people speak truths they have never allowed themselves to say out loud. These truths often relate to childhood experiences, identity, and how people learned to stay safe.

Key early themes include insight into:

• Truth as a physical and emotional "ring" in the body • Personas formed in childhood to avoid rejection • Depression and anxiety caused by living from those personas

The conversation explores how frightening it can be to challenge old roles and family narratives, yet how necessary it is for authentic healing.

Core Insights from Michael Sapiro

Michael outlines his model of preparation, psychedelic sessions, and integration, especially in ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. Preparation often includes discovering what he calls the "heart of the hurt" and building trust for the internal process.

Core insights include:

• Tracing patterns back to their origins in early experience • Using guided imagery, breathwork, and somatic awareness to practice surrender • Understanding healing as applying love to wounded parts • Understanding growth as becoming who you would be without old limits

Additional points:

• Medicine sessions create real practice in letting go • Defenses should be engaged with, not fought • Sensations in the body offer essential guidance

Later Discussion and Takeaways with Michael Sapiro

Michael compares one-on-one psychotherapy with retreat work. In group settings he holds space and supports safety, while in individual sessions he uses a blend of silence and active therapeutic guidance.

He also shares personal truth work, including embracing his own "bigness," understanding ethics as part of spirituality, and learning to endure anxiety without falling into shame. Listeners gain practical guidance for nurturing wounded parts, developing the ability to endure challenging states, and allowing their strengths to emerge.

Frequently Asked Questions

Who is Michael Sapiro? Michael Sapiro is a clinical psychologist, ordained Zen Buddhist monk, psychedelic psychotherapist, retreat leader, and research fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences.

What is the main idea of Truth Medicine by Michael Sapiro? Truth Medicine teaches that discovering and living one's personal truth is the core of healing, with psychedelics serving as a tool that helps reveal and embody that truth.

How does Michael Sapiro use ketamine in therapy? He uses ketamine within a structured model involving preparation, supportive dosing sessions, and integration focused on compassion, endurance, and meaningful change.

Does he only work in group settings? No. He leads retreats, but much of his work is individual psychedelic psychotherapy focused on trauma, personal truth, and growth.

What can clinicians learn from his approach? Clinicians can learn how to balance guided intervention with open space, work directly with defenses, and support healing as both love and action.

Closing Thoughts

This conversation with Michael Sapiro offers a grounded, practical view of how truth, compassion, and psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy can support real change in the current psychedelic resurgence. By blending body awareness, ethical clarity, and personal growth, this episode provides useful guidance for therapists, guides, and seekers who want to bring more truth medicine into their lives and communities.

https://www.michaelsapiro.com

Holotropic Breathwork sits at the center of this wide ranging conversation between Psychedelics Today co-founders Joe Moore and Kyle Buller. Drawing from decades of personal practice and assorted types of breathwork facilitation, they explore how breathwork methods from the Grof lineage including Dreamshadow Breathwork can prepare people for psychedelic work, support difficult journeys, and deepen integration over time. Kyle shares how his near death experience, somatic training, and breathwork facilitation shaped this new course on breathwork foundations, while Joe reflects on how reading Dr Stanislav Grof and years of experience in Holotropic Breathwork changed how he approaches psychedelics.

Early Themes: Roots, Lineages, and First Encounters

The episode opens with how each of them first found breathwork. Joe discovered Grof's writing in college, then traveled to Dreamshadow workshops long before he worked seriously with psychedelics. Kyle came to Holotropic style breathwork while studying transpersonal psychology at Burlington College, arriving as a skeptic who assumed people were exaggerating until his first session opened into a full psychedelic level process.

They trace the roots of breathwork in modern psychology back to Wilhelm Reich, character armor, and early somatic approaches, then follow that thread into Grof's work and later branches. Joe and Kyle map out the different schools that emerged, including Grof Transpersonal Training, Grof Legacy Training, and Dreamshadow, and explain why the term "breathwork" has become a huge umbrella that covers everything from Wim Hof to short online sessions that are not actually Holotropic Breathwork.

Core Insights: Breath, Nervous System, and Working the Edges

In the middle of the episode they move into what this new foundations course actually covers and why it matters now. Rather than promising quick fixes, Kyle frames breath as a flexible tool for:

• Preparation before psychedelic sessions
• Navigation during intense or destabilizing moments
• Integration and nervous system support afterward

They discuss window of tolerance, fight flight freeze responses, and how fast, deep breathing can open powerful experiences but also risk overwhelm if there is no somatic literacy. Kyle shares a vivid story from a ketamine training where his near death trauma was reactivated and how simple breath awareness, slow belly breathing, and body based skills kept him from panicking or fleeing.

Throughout, they return to a key point: Holotropic Breathwork and related practices can restore agency. The breather chooses when to intensify, when to slow down, and how far to go, which can be deeply reparative for people whose trauma involved a loss of control.

Later Discussion and Takeaways: Holotropic Breathwork as Foundation, Not Shortcut

Later in the conversation, Joe and Kyle caution against "keeping up with the Joneses" in psychedelic culture. They talk about people chasing ever bigger doses, accruing trauma, and then needing years of therapy to sort it out. Breathwork, including Holotropic Breathwork in a well held group setting, is offered as a slower, more grounded way to explore non ordinary states while building skills that transfer into medicine work.

They outline the core components of Grof lineage breathwork: intensified breathing, evocative music, focused body support, expressive art, and group sharing in a safe container. Joe highlights how group process, mandala drawing, and simply being witnessed can be as healing as the inner journey itself. They also flag practical next steps: Kyle's self paced breathwork foundations course at the Psychedelic Education Center, upcoming live online sessions, and in person weekend workshops in places like Breckenridge.

Frequently Asked Questions

What is Holotropic Breathwork? Holotropic Breathwork is a structured group process developed by Stan and Christina Grof that uses accelerated breathing, evocative music, supportive bodywork, art, and integration sharing to access non ordinary states of consciousness without substances.

Is Holotropic Breathwork as intense as psychedelics? For some people, yes. Joe and Kyle both describe Holotropic Breathwork sessions that matched the depth of powerful LSD or ayahuasca journeys, while also noting that some sessions are quiet, restful, and focused on simple nervous system regulation.

Can I do Holotropic Breathwork alone at home? They strongly suggest caution. Gentle breath practices can be explored solo, but Holotropic Breathwork as taught in the Grof lineages is designed for a trained facilitation team and a group container to reduce risk and support intense emotional or somatic processes.

How does Holotropic Breathwork help with psychedelic preparation and integration? Breathwork helps people learn their own nervous system, practice staying with difficult material, and build trust in inner process. These skills often translate into more resilience, flexibility, and agency before, during, and after psychedelic sessions.

Is Holotropic Breathwork backed by research? Research on breathwork is growing, especially around heart rate variability, stress, and subjective mystical type experiences. Joe and Kyle emphasize that early studies suggest overlaps with psychedelic states, but they avoid framing Holotropic Breathwork as a cure and instead present it as a powerful tool within a broader healing path.

In a culture that often treats psychedelics like quick fixes, this episode makes the case for slow foundations, embodied practice, and honest respect for the risks. By placing Holotropic Breathwork and the other Grof lineage breathwork practices inside a larger conversation about trauma, agency, and community, Joe and Kyle offer a grounded path for anyone who wants to explore non ordinary states in a safer, more skillful way.

Learn more about breathwork in the Foundations class here.

Alexander Beiner joins Psychedelics Today to explore how psychedelics, culture, and power shape each other. A writer, facilitator, and co founder of the conference Breaking Convention and the media platform KAINOS, he has spent years thinking about how psychedelic experiences ripple into politics, economics, conflict, and community. In this episode, he and Joe trace the path from early internet forums to today's psychedelic renaissance, and ask what it would mean to bring a truly psychedelic perspective into our institutions.

Beiner is less interested in psychedelics as a niche medical tool and more interested in how they can help us see through destructive cultural "games," reconnect to our bodies, and relate across deep divides.

Early themes with Alexander Beiner

The conversation starts with Beiner's origin story. He describes formative psychedelic experiences as a teenager, and how early access to thinkers like Terence McKenna, Timothy Leary, and the Shulgins led him onto the Grow Report forum and its associated podcasts. From there he launched his own visionary art podcast and eventually co founded Rebel Wisdom, where he focused more broadly on culture, systems, and meaning rather than only on psychedelics.

He explains that most of his writing has not been about psychedelic substances, but about a "psychedelic approach" to reality. That means paying attention to complexity, paradox, and relationship, and asking what a psychedelic form of education, politics, or media might look like. He also touches on his documentary "Leviathan," which looks at breakdowns of trust, disembodiment, and the social forces that pull us away from what is real and relational.

Core insights from this conversation

In the middle of the episode, the discussion moves into concrete tensions in the current psychedelic resurgence. Topics include:

• How medicalization can both help and constrain access
• Cognitive liberty and the right to alter one's own consciousness
• Psychedelic capitalism and the "Moloch" problem of destructive competitive games
• The risks and potential of psychedelic religions and new spiritual communities

Beiner highlights work on ayahuasca circles for Israelis and Palestinians, noting how "we are all one" language can sometimes block necessary truth telling about power and harm. He returns often to embodiment as a key corrective. When people slow down, feel their bodies, and notice what is actually happening in their nervous systems, they can hold disagreement without dehumanizing each other.

He also points to emerging work on psychedelics for creativity and problem solving, including stories where psychedelic insights contributed to breakthroughs in science and complex systems thinking. For him, this is one of the most exciting frontiers, because it shifts the story from "fixing a deficit" to "creating something new."

Later discussion and takeaways with Alexander Beiner

Later in the episode, Alexander Beiner and Joe talk about cult dynamics, religious freedom, and the need for better checks and balances in emerging psychedelic communities. Beiner stresses that humans are naturally drawn into strong groups and narratives, so the key is not to eliminate "cults" but to spot harmful patterns early and build better accountability.

They explore how double binds and mixed messages can create mental distress, and how psychedelics can sometimes resolve these binds by adding new context and perspectives. From there, the conversation turns to third spaces, communitas, and the urgent need for more embodied, in person culture beyond screens, work, and home.

Practical takeaways include:

• Work with psychedelics in ways that reconnect you to your body, not just your ideas
• Treat medicalization as one path among many, not the only legitimate route
• Pay attention to group dynamics, power, and accountability in any psychedelic setting
• Look for ways to bring "psychedelic virtues" like flexibility, curiosity, and compassion into your workplace, family, and community

Frequently Asked Questions

Who is Alexander Beiner? Alexander Beiner is a writer, facilitator, and co founder of the psychedelic conference Breaking Convention and the media platform Kinos. His work focuses on culture, systems, and how psychedelic perspectives can reshape society.

What is Alexander Beiner's book about? His recent book (discussed in this episode) looks at how psychedelics interact with politics, capitalism, and culture, and asks whether they can help us navigate multiple crises without getting captured by the same destructive games.

How does Alexander Beiner view psychedelic medicalization? He sees medicalization as useful but limited. He supports access for people who need it, but worries that a purely medical frame reinforces class divides and hands too much power to psychiatry, instead of centering cognitive liberty and community based use.

What is Leviathan in Alexander Beiner's work? "Leviathan" is his documentary on the breakdown of trust, disembodiment, and large scale systems that pull us away from what is real and relational. It connects mythic images, embodiment, and modern crises of meaning.

What is Kinos and how does it relate to Alexander Beiner? KAINOS is Beiner's Substack based media platform, focused on surfacing novel perspectives and stories about culture, psychedelics, and the future. It extends many of the themes explored in this episode.

This episode places Alexander Beiner within the wider psychedelic resurgence as a voice linking inner work to outer systems. For clinicians, researchers, and community members, it offers a rich invitation to think beyond individual healing and ask how psychedelic perspectives might help us transform the cultural games we are playing.

KAINOS

The Bigger Picture

Breaking Convention

Overview

Evelyn Eddy Shoop PMHNP-BC joins Psychedelics Today to share her journey from Division I athlete to psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner and psilocybin research participant. In this conversation, she explains how sports injuries, OCD, and intensive treatment led her into psychiatry and eventually into a psilocybin clinical trial at Yale. Her story weaves together lived experience, clinical training, and a call for more humane systems of care and better qualitative data in psychedelic science.

Early Themes: Injury, OCD, and Choosing Psychiatry

Early in the episode, Evelyn Eddy Shoop PMHNP-BC describes how multiple season ending injuries in college and serious mental health stressors in her family pushed her to rethink her life path. Originally pre vet, she stepped away from veterinary medicine after realizing she could not tolerate that environment.

During a semester off for surgery and mental health, she completed intensive outpatient treatment and family therapy. That time showed her how powerful psychological work could be. It also reawakened a long standing curiosity about the brain, consciousness, and human experience. This led her to switch her major to psychology and later pursue psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner training at the University of Pennsylvania.

At Penn, she felt supported academically and personally. Her interest in psychedelics grew as she realized that standard OCD treatments and high dose SSRIs were not giving her the level of functioning or happiness she knew was possible.

Core Insights: Psilocybin Trials, Qualitative Data, and Clinical Skepticism

In the middle of the episode, Eddy shares the story of finding a psilocybin trial on ClinicalTrials.gov just as she was about to start ketamine therapy. She received placebo first, then open label psilocybin, and describes the dosing day as one of the hardest days of her life, with benefits that emerged slowly over months through integration.

She uses her experience to highlight why qualitative data matters. Numbers alone cannot capture the depth of a psychedelic journey or the slow unfolding of meaning over time. She argues that subjective stories, even difficult ones, are essential for clinicians, researchers, and policymakers.

Key themes include:

• The central role of integration support in turning a crisis level session into lasting growth
• How trial environments on inpatient psychiatric units can feel like prison instead of healing spaces
• The limits of double blind placebo trials when participants become desperate for active treatment
• The need for more nuanced language around psychosis and psychedelic harms

Eddy also addresses skepticism in psychiatry. Many providers fear substance induced psychosis and feel uneasy with medicines whose mechanisms are not fully understood. She suggests that more lived experience stories and careful education can help bridge that gap.

Later Discussion and Takeaways

In the later part of the episode, Eddy and Joe discuss harm reduction, ketamine risks, and how poorly designed systems can create harm even when the medicine itself is helpful. Eddy describes being treated as "just another psych patient" once the research team left for the day, including being denied basic comforts like headache relief after an emotionally intense session.

She calls for:

• More humane hospital and research environments
• Required psychedelic education in psychiatric training
• Honest, nonjudgmental conversations about substance use with patients
• Stronger public education for students and festival communities

Eddy also invites listeners in Wilmington, Delaware and nearby regions to connect if they need a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner for psychedelic related research. She hopes to bring her lived experience and clinical skills into the emerging field as psilocybin and other treatments move toward approval.

Frequently Asked Questions

Who is Evelyn Eddy Shoop PMHNP-BC? She is a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner trained at the University of Pennsylvania, a former Division I athlete, and a psilocybin trial participant who now advocates for more humane and data informed psychedelic care.

What did Eddy learn from her psilocybin clinical trial experience? She learned that the hardest sessions can lead to deep change when integration support is strong and when there is time to unpack insights, rather than rushing to rate symptoms on a scale.

Why does she care so much about qualitative data in psychedelic research? Eddy believes that numbers cannot capture the full human impact of psychedelic therapy. Stories show how people actually live with their disorders and integrate change, which is vital for ethical practice and policy.

How does she view psychedelic harms and psychosis risk? She acknowledges real risks, especially for people with certain histories, but also notes that some psychotic experiences are not distressing. She calls for more precise language, better containers, and honest harm reduction education.

What role does a psychiatric nurse practitioner like Evelyn play in psychedelic care? Practitioners like Evelyn can assess risk, prescribe within legal frameworks, provide preparation and integration, and help bridge the gap between traditional psychiatry and emerging psychedelic therapies.

Psychedelic care is evolving fast, and this episode shows why voices like Evelyn Eddy Shoop PMHNP-BC are essential in the current psychedelic resurgence. Her blend of lived experience, clinical training, and critical thinking points toward a future where data and story, safety and possibility, can finally grow together.