With Graham Duvall of Terramonga Food Hub

In this Episode Graham Duvall shares his 15-year journey building resilient regional food systems in western North Carolina through Mother Earth Food and its evolution into Terramonga Hub. He explains how food hubs strengthen local agriculture by connecting farmers with consumers, creating reliable market access, and improving food security. The conversation explores the realities of entrepreneurship, the collapse and rebirth of a mission-driven business, and why resilient local food economies are essential for thriving communities. Graham also reflects on personal growth, mindfulness, and the importance of staying committed to meaningful work despite repeated setbacks.

Our Guest: Graham is the co-founder of Mother Earth Foods and warehouse manager at Terramonga Hub in Asheville, North Carolina. He is a longtime advocate for resilient regional food systems, helping connect local farms, food artisans, and communities through innovative food distribution and aggregation networks. His work supports sustainable agriculture, strengthens western North Carolina local food economy, and expands access to fresh, responsibly produced food.

Key Topics

• Graham Duvall
• Terramonga Hub
• Mother Earth Food
• Regional food hubs
• Local food systems
• Food sovereignty
• Western North Carolina agriculture
• Farmers markets
• Community Supported Agriculture (CSA)
• Healthy Opportunities Pilot (HOP) Program
• Regenerative agriculture
• Local food distribution
• Daniel Quinn's Ishmael
• Michael Pollan's How to Change Your Mind

Key Questions Answered

What is a food hub?

A food hub is a flexible community-based organization that aggregates, stores, markets, and distributes products from local farms while creating dependable outlets for producers and increasing access to fresh local food.

Why are food hubs becoming increasingly important?

They help rebuild regional food resilience, support small farmers, shorten supply chains, strengthen local economies, and improve food security in an increasingly centralized food system.

Why do farmers need food hubs?

Many farmers can grow enough food but struggle to find reliable markets. Food hubs solve this by connecting producers with consumers, institutions, and community organizations.

Why is western North Carolina well suited for local food systems?

The region combines a rich agricultural history, strong farmers market culture, experienced growers, fertile farmland, and community support for local agriculture.

How does Terra Monga Hub serve customers?

Customers order online each week from a curated selection of seasonal produce, meats, dairy, artisan foods, and pantry items sourced primarily from local and regional farms and delivered directly to their homes.

What happened to Mother Earth Food?

After 14 years of operation and multiple financial challenges, Mother Earth Food closed and transitioned into Terra Monga Hub through a partnership with Terra Monga Farm, allowing the mission to continue under a new structure.

What lessons come from entrepreneurial failure?

Business setbacks can become opportunities when the mission remains intact. Adaptability, persistence, and strong partnerships often create the path forward.

How can individuals help transform the food system?

Start locally by growing food, supporting nearby farmers, shopping at farmers markets, and investing in community food systems where you live.

Episode Highlights

• Graham explains how food hubs create reliable market access for local farmers while strengthening community resilience.
• The evolution of Mother Earth Food into Terra Monga Hub demonstrates how mission-driven businesses can adapt after financial hardship.
• Western North Carolina's farming heritage provides fertile ground for rebuilding regional food systems.
• Graham shares how the Healthy Opportunities Pilot Program delivered nutritious food to hundreds of food-insecure families.
• Entrepreneurship in local food requires resilience through repeated cycles of growth, contraction, and reinvention.
• Personal development, mindfulness, and intentional self-reflection helped Graham maintain clarity during difficult seasons.
• Both Graham and Greg discuss how Daniel Quinn's Ishmael fundamentally changed their understanding of humanity's relationship with food and nature.
• The conversation concludes with a reminder that meaningful change begins within our homes and local communities.

Resources

• Learn about Terramonga Hub — https://terramongahub.com
• Contact Graham Duvall — [email protected]
• Visit your local farmers market and support regional food producers.
• Start a home garden to reconnect with your food source.
• Read: Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
• Read: How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/Terramonga for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

How we are finally figuring out Plant nutrition with Landen Schilling

In this month's Seed Chat, Greg Peterson and Bill McDorman welcome Landon Schaelling of Sacred Soil Solutions to explore the emerging science of rhizophagy, the process by which plants consume microbes for nutrition. The conversation examines how endophytes, fermentation, compost, and seed saving may work together to improve plant health, resilience, and flavor. They also discuss practical ways gardeners can introduce beneficial microbes into their gardens while highlighting the rapidly evolving research that is reshaping our understanding of soil biology and plant nutrition.

Our Guests: Landon Schaelling is the founder of Sacred Soil Solutions. He is focused on bringing optimal and approachable microbe inputs to gardeners and homesteaders, while also teaching farmers in the American West how to implement soil building solutions at scale.

And Bill McDorman has committed his life to community-based seed stewardship. In 1984, he started Seeds Trust High Altitude Gardens, a bioregional mail order seed company that he ran for 28 years. He authored the book Basic Seed Saving in 1994, and in 2010 Bill and his wife, Belle Starr, founded Seed School.

Key Topics

• Rhizophagy (root-eating process)
• Endophytes and plant microbiomes
• Soil microbiology
• Seed saving and local adaptation
• Horizontal gene transfer
• Fermentation for microbial cultivation
• Compost and fungal soil biology
• Microbe Master Mix
• Effective Microorganisms (EM/EM1)
• Dr. James F. White
• John Kempf's Plant Health Pyramid
• Dr. Christine Jones
• Biochar and Terra Preta
• Sacred Soil Solutions

Key Questions Answered

What is rhizophagy?

Rhizophagy is the process by which plants absorb living microbes through their root tips, consume many of them for nutrition, and release others back into the soil, creating a dynamic relationship between plants and soil biology.

What are endophytes?

Endophytes are beneficial bacteria and fungi that live inside plant tissues without causing disease. They become part of the plant's internal microbiome and contribute to nutrient cycling, resilience, and overall plant health.

Why is this research changing how we understand plant nutrition?

Emerging research suggests healthy plants obtain much of their nutrition by consuming living microbes rather than relying solely on dissolved minerals in the soil, expanding traditional models of plant nutrition.

Why are locally saved seeds so valuable?

Seeds saved in a local environment gradually adapt genetically to regional growing conditions. Local microbial communities appear to undergo similar adaptation, potentially increasing plant vigor over time.

How can gardeners introduce beneficial microbes?

Gardeners can inoculate seeds, apply microbial solutions as foliar sprays, drench transplant roots, build high-quality compost, and encourage living soil ecosystems through mulch and cover crops.

Why are microbial fermentations useful?

Fermentation allows gardeners to rapidly multiply beneficial microorganisms that can be applied efficiently to seeds, soil, and foliage while adapting to local growing conditions.

Does treating seeds with microbes improve plant performance?

According to Landon Schaelling's experience, treated seeds often produce stronger root systems, healthier foliage, improved nutrient uptake, greater vigor, and enhanced flavor.

Is feeding the plant different from feeding the soil?

The discussion suggests both are important, but directly supporting plant microbiology may allow healthier plants to build better soil through root exudates and microbial partnerships.

How does drought affect soil microbes?

Dry soils reduce microbial activity. Maintaining mulch and consistent soil moisture helps preserve beneficial microbial populations.

Can microbial communities adapt to new environments?

Yes. Through horizontal gene transfer and rapid reproduction, microbial populations can adapt to local conditions much faster than plants themselves.

Episode Highlights

• Greg celebrates the Urban Farm Podcast approaching its 1,000th episode.
• Bill McDorman introduces the emerging science of rhizophagy and why it has changed his perspective on gardening.
• Landon explains how plants consume microbes through root tips rather than relying solely on dissolved nutrients.
• The conversation explores how endophytes become part of a plant's internal immune and digestive systems.
• Bill shares dramatic improvements after using microbial treatments on greens grown in sandy soil.
• The panel discusses microbial fermentations as an accessible alternative to intensive compost production.
• Audience questions cover drought, raised beds, honey versus molasses, wheat adaptation, and sourcing microbial inoculants.
• The episode concludes with a discussion about nature's intelligence, seed adaptation, and the intriguing tradition of placing seeds in one's mouth before planting.

Calls to Action & Resources

• Attend future live Seed Chats — https://seedchat.org
• Listen to previous Seed Chats — https://urbanfarmpodcast.com
• Learn about Sacred Soil Solutions — Contact Landon Schaelling directly for information on Microbe Master Mix and educational resources. Instagram: @sacredsoilsolutions
• Facebook: Landen Schaelling
• Email: [email protected]

• Recommended Research
• Dr. James F. White — Rhizophagy Cycle research
• John Kempf — Plant Health Pyramid
• Dr. Christine Jones — Soil carbon and regenerative agriculture
• Effective Microorganisms (EM/EM1) fermentation methods

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/996 for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

with Brad Lancaster & Andrew Millison

In this Episode - What begins as a simple effort to redirect stormwater becomes a powerful story of ecological restoration, community organizing, and policy change. Brad Lancaster and Andrew Millison discuss how a grassroots, initially "pre-legal" water harvesting project transformed neighborhoods in Tucson, inspired new city policies, and is now influencing communities across the Southwest. They explore how small interventions can create lasting cultural shifts, why regenerative change requires generations of stewardship, and how anyone can become a catalyst for positive change in their own community.

Our Guests: Brad is the author of the books Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands and Beyond, the creator of HarvestingRainwater.com, and co-founder of Neighborhood Foresters.org. These converge through his neighborhood’s rain-irrigated native food forestry efforts in downtown Tucson, AZ. Their work has planted over 1,800 native food-bearing trees and thousands of multi-use understory plants solely watered by the 1.25 million gallons of stormwater they planted in streetside- and in-street rain gardens. 

 Andrew Millison is an educator and founder of Oregon State University’s Permaculture Design program. He has travelled the Earth documenting impactful stories of land regeneration on his popular YouTube channel, which boasts over 100 million video views. In his 30-year career in Permaculture, he has designed and consulted on numerous projects throughout the world.

Key Topics

• Street-side water harvesting
• Brad Lancaster
• Andrew Millison
• Tucson neighborhood restoration
• Community-led ecological design
• Rainwater harvesting
• Urban heat island mitigation
• Native food forests
• Water policy reform
• Regenerative community development
• Green infrastructure
• Earth Repair Fund
• Neighborhood stewardship
• Permaculture design

Key Questions Answered

How did an illegal curb cut become a model for public policy?

A neighborhood experiment redirecting street runoff into planted basins demonstrated measurable environmental and community benefits. Those results convinced city officials to legalize and eventually promote the practice, creating a model now spreading to other cities.

What problems does street-side water harvesting solve?

It reduces flooding, cools neighborhoods, slows traffic, supports native ecosystems, grows food, increases biodiversity, improves walkability, and strengthens neighborhood relationships—all using rainwater that previously became waste.

Why is community participation more important than infrastructure?

Infrastructure creates opportunity, but long-term success depends on residents becoming active stewards. Cultural change happens when people continually care for and improve the systems they've created together.

How has Tucson changed over the past 30 years?

What was once a hot, barren streetscape has become a shaded urban forest filled with native plants, birds, pedestrians, cyclists, and community gathering spaces.

Why focus on native plants?

Native species require less irrigation, survive harsh conditions, support local wildlife, and create resilient landscapes that continue thriving even when maintenance decreases.

What does "pre-legal" mean?

Rather than breaking rules for the sake of rebellion, Brad describes testing practical solutions before regulations existed. Successful demonstrations then became the basis for changing policy.

How do you convince government agencies to support innovation?

By solving their existing problems—flooding, crime, heat, traffic, maintenance costs—and collaborating with receptive allies inside government rather than making demands.

When does a project become a cultural movement?

When it measurably improves people's daily lives, inspires widespread participation, changes public policy, and motivates others to adapt the ideas within their own communities.

Why did Andrew Millison choose to document this story?

Because it represents a proven, decades-long example of regenerative change that others can replicate, offering practical hope instead of theoretical solutions.

What mindset shift do the speakers hope listeners experience?

To begin seeing neighborhoods as living watersheds full of opportunities for regeneration, rather than fixed infrastructure that cannot be improved.

Episode Highlights

• A neighborhood experiment in harvesting street runoff evolved into city-approved infrastructure and inspired policy changes beyond Tucson.
• Water harvesting became a catalyst for cooling neighborhoods, restoring wildlife habitat, calming traffic, and building stronger communities.
• Native food forests transformed once-barren public rights-of-way into productive community commons.
• Brad Lancaster explains how changing policy requires collaboration, persistence, and demonstrating successful models.
• Andrew Millison shares why documenting proven regenerative projects creates hope and motivates action.
• The discussion explores how infrastructure can become a tool for cultural transformation.
• Both guests emphasize that regenerative work is lifelong, requiring continual community participation rather than one-time projects.
• Listeners are encouraged to identify their own community's "acupuncture point"—the small intervention capable of creating widespread positive change.

Resources

Watch the documentary

• Fundraising documentary on Brad Lancaster's Tucson water harvesting project

Learn Rainwater Harvesting

• HarvestingRainwater.com

Support the Project

• Earth Repair Fund crowdfunding campaign

Explore Native Urban Forestry

• NeighborhoodForesters.org

Learn Permaculture

• Oregon State University Permaculture Program

Books

• Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands and Beyond by Brad Lancaster

YouTube

• Andrew Millison
• Brad Lancaster

Podcast Show Notes Visit www.urbanfarm.org/TucsonWaterHarvesting for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

 Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback. Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

In this special commentary episode, Farmer Greg reflects on his conversation with Shelby Maldonado and Leeza Chen of the Appalachian Grower Seed Collective. He explores how the Southeast lost much of its regional seed-growing infrastructure, why COVID-19 exposed the fragility of modern seed supply chains, and what it takes to rebuild resilient, locally adapted seed systems. Greg highlights the importance of bioregional seed stewardship, community collaboration, and becoming a "seed ancestor" by saving and sharing seeds. The episode is both a call to action and a vision for strengthening local food security through regional seed sovereignty.

Key Topics

• Appalachian Grower Seed Collective
• Seed sovereignty and regional resilience
• COVID-19 seed shortages
• Local seed production infrastructure
• Seed saving traditions
• Bioregional seed adaptation
• Southern heirloom varieties
• Community seed cooperatives
• Climate resilience in agriculture
• Shared seed processing equipment
• Utopian Seed Project
• Local food security
• Seed stewardship
• Becoming a seed ancestor

Key Questions Answered

Why did the Southeast largely stop producing its own seeds?

Over time, seed production became concentrated in other regions and large commercial seed companies. Farmers shifted from saving seeds to purchasing them annually, causing local seed knowledge and infrastructure to fade.

What did the COVID-19 pandemic reveal about the seed supply chain?

When seed inventories sold out during the pandemic, many growers realized they were dependent on distant suppliers and vulnerable to disruptions beyond their control.

Why are locally adapted seeds so valuable?

Seeds selected over multiple seasons in the same region naturally adapt to local soils, climate, pests, and weather patterns, often outperforming varieties developed elsewhere.

What is bioregional seed adaptation?

Bioregional adaptation is the ongoing process of selecting and saving seeds that thrive under local growing conditions, creating increasingly resilient crops over successive generations.

How did the Appalachian Grower Seed Collective get started?

The collective began with ten farmers, shared seed-cleaning equipment housed in a mobile trailer, grant funding, and a year dedicated to building trust before launching seed production.

Why does the collective only steward seeds grown locally for at least three years?

Three growing seasons provide enough time for varieties to begin adapting to regional conditions, strengthening their long-term resilience and performance.

How can individual gardeners begin preserving seed diversity?

Anyone can save seeds from plants they love, share them with neighbors, and begin creating a regional seed legacy—even without large-scale infrastructure.

Why should every region develop a seed collective?

Regional seed collectives create local agricultural resilience, preserve genetic diversity, strengthen community relationships, and provide insurance when commercial supply chains fail.

Episode Highlights

• COVID-19 exposed how dependent many local farmers are on distant seed suppliers.
• Modern local food systems are only as resilient as their seed sources.
• Seed saving knowledge disappeared gradually as commercial seed purchasing became the norm.
• Trust-building among growers proved just as important as equipment or funding.
• Every growing season becomes a selection event that strengthens locally adapted genetics.
• Gardeners can become the first "seed ancestor" in a new regional seed lineage.
• Seed collectives create practical infrastructure that complements—not replaces—the commercial seed industry.
• Building resilient food systems begins with communities stewarding their own seeds.

Calls to Action & Resources

Listen to Episode 993 - https://urbanfarm.org/seedcollective

Learn about the Appalachian Grower Seed Collective - https://utopianseed.org/store

Connect with the Urban Farm Podcast - https://urbanfarm.org

Email Farmer Greg - [email protected]

Interested in starting a seed collective?

Reach out to the Appalachian Grower Seed Collective to learn from their experience and begin building seed resilience in your own region. [email protected]

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/993 for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

 Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

The Appalachian Growers Seed Collective w/ Shelby Mandonado and Leeza Chen

In this Episode Shelby Mandonado and Leeza Chen share the story behind the Appalachian Growers Seed Collective, a collaborative network of farmers producing and stewarding locally adapted seeds for the Southern Appalachian region. They discuss why regional seed production matters, how climate change makes local adaptation increasingly important, and how farmers can reclaim seed sovereignty by saving and sharing seeds. The conversation explores the practical realities of launching a seed collective, preserving heirloom varieties, and strengthening local food systems through collaboration rather than competition. It is an inspiring discussion about resilience, biodiversity, and the long-term power of community-grown seeds.

Our Guests: Shelby is a farmer, organizer, and mother with a passion for collaborative models of community building based around our shared love of the land. And

Leeza is a seed farmer near Asheville, North Carolina. She is inspired by the way seeds are both deeply personal and powerfully political, often leaning on them as a lens to understand our connection to the land, culture, and sovereignty.

Key Topics

• Appalachian Growers Seed Collective
• Shelby Mandonado
• Leeza Chen
• Southern Appalachian seed stewardship
• Bioregional seed adaptation
• Seed sovereignty
• Local food systems
• Community-based seed production
• Seed farming
• Climate resilience in agriculture
• Utopian Seed Project
• Heirloom and heritage crop preservation
• Farmer collaboration and shared equipment
• Seed saving as cultural preservation

Key Questions Answered

What is the Appalachian Growers Seed Collective?

A regional network of approximately ten farmers who collaboratively grow, steward, package, and sell locally adapted seed varieties while sharing equipment, knowledge, and resources.

Why are locally adapted seeds so important?

Seeds grown and selected in a specific region become better adapted to local climate, weather patterns, soils, pests, and diseases, improving reliability for future growers.

What is a seed farmer?

A seed farmer allows crops to complete their full life cycle, harvesting mature seed instead of edible produce, then cleaning, testing, and packaging seed for future planting.

Why has on-farm seed saving declined?

Commercial seed industry consolidation has led many growers to purchase seed annually rather than saving their own, reducing regional adaptation and local seed resilience.

How did the COVID-19 pandemic influence the collective?

Seed shortages during the pandemic exposed vulnerabilities in the food system and highlighted the need for local seed production and regional seed independence.

How was the collective started?

The founders secured a grant, purchased shared seed-processing equipment, built a mobile processing trailer, and spent significant time developing trust, shared values, and collaborative systems before expanding production.

What makes Southern Appalachian seed production unique?

The region's humid climate presents challenges rarely addressed by traditional seed-saving literature, requiring local experimentation and farmer-to-farmer learning.

How can others start a regional seed collective?

Begin with trusted growers, define shared values and goals, develop a complementary seed collection, share resources, and grow at the "speed of trust."

How does the Utopian Seed Project support the collective?

The nonprofit evaluates diverse crop varieties through research and field trials, then shares promising selections with the collective for regional seed production and distribution.

What role does seed stewardship play in climate resilience?

Saving seed from plants that survive local stresses gradually builds populations better adapted to changing environmental conditions.

Can someone without a farming heritage become a seed steward?

Absolutely. Every seed saver can become the first generation of a new seed lineage by preserving, sharing, and passing seeds to future growers.

Episode Highlights

• The collective includes about ten farmers working together to grow, process, and market locally adapted seeds.
• Seeds are selected only after proving themselves through multiple growing seasons in Southern Appalachian conditions.
• COVID-19 seed shortages revealed how dependent local food systems are on distant commercial seed suppliers.
• Shared equipment, including a mobile seed-processing trailer, allows small farmers to access professional seed-cleaning tools.
• Trust-building, shared meals, and collaborative decision-making are considered just as important as technical farming skills.
• Climate change makes regional seed adaptation increasingly valuable for future food security.
• Every heirloom seed carries generations of cultural history, family traditions, and local knowledge.
• Anyone can become the first ancestor in a new seed-saving tradition by simply beginning to save and share seed.

Resources

Appalachian Growers Seed Collective Store — https://utopianseed.org/store

Utopian Seed Project — https://utopianseed.org

Real Seeds ZigZag Winnower Plans — https://www.realseeds.co.uk

Connect with Leeza Chen — [email protected]

Recommended Book - The Seed Garden by Jared Zystro

Follow Utopian Seed Project — Instagram, Facebook, and the Utopian Seed Project mailing list for breeding trials, research, and seed releases.

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/SeedCollective for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

In this Episode we have Landen Schaelling, founder of Sacred Soil Solutions, sharing how healthy soil biology transforms plant health from the ground up. Drawing on years of homesteading, regenerative soil research, and microscopy, he explains why bacteria, fungi, and other microbes are the true engine behind thriving gardens and farms. The conversation explores the science of rhizophagy, microbial ferments, compost quality, and practical strategies that gardeners and farmers can immediately implement to build healthier, more resilient soil. Landen also discusses how understanding living soil can reduce fertilizer inputs, improve plant immunity, and restore natural ecological balance.

Our Guest: Landen Schaelling is the founder of Sacred Soil Solutions. He is focused on bringing optimal and approachable microbial inputs to gardeners and homesteaders, while also teaching farmers in the American West how to implement soil-building solutions at scale. Landen has been homesteading through a permaculture lens in Northern Arizona for over a decade. In the last couple of years, he has devoted his focus to restoring holistic soil microbiology and using practical microscope work to verify and guide that process.

Key Topics

• Living soil biology
• Soil microbiome
• Rhizophagy (plant root feeding)
• Compost quality and fungal dominance
• Soil microscopy
• Symbiotic Antioxidative Microbes (SAM)
• Microbial ferments
• Compost extracts vs. compost teas
• Soil pH and alkalinity
• Water retention in arid climates
• Plant Health Pyramid
• Complete protein synthesis in plants
• Regenerative agriculture
• Homesteading and permaculture

Key Questions Answered

What makes soil truly healthy?

Healthy soil contains a balance of minerals, water, air space, organic matter, and abundant biological life. Understanding each site's history helps determine the best path toward regeneration.

Why are microbes so important?

Microbes drive nutrient cycling, improve plant nutrition, build soil structure, support water retention, and create resilient ecosystems that naturally suppress disease and pests.

What is rhizophagy?

Rhizophagy is the process by which plant roots actively absorb bacteria and yeast through root tips, consume them, and gain proteins, micronutrients, and growth-promoting compounds directly from living microbes.

Why does compost sometimes perform better than fertilizer?

High-quality compost delivers living biology rather than simply nutrients. Plants respond rapidly when beneficial microbes become available through compost or microbial ferments.

What's the difference between compost tea and microbial ferments?

Compost tea extracts microbes already living in compost, while microbial ferments grow stable populations of beneficial microbes that can be applied as foliar sprays or soil drenches.

Why is soil history important?

Past management practices—including flood irrigation, synthetic fertilizers, pesticides, and previous crops—continue to influence soil biology, fertility, and plant performance years later.

How can gardeners encourage healthier soil biology?

Build mature compost, reduce unnecessary disturbance, increase carbon-rich materials, apply microbial ferments, mulch consistently, and maintain proper moisture.

Can healthier soil reduce pests and diseases?

Healthy plants with complete protein synthesis become naturally less attractive to many insect pests while beneficial microbes improve plant immune function against common diseases.

How does soil microscopy help?

Microscopy allows growers to directly observe microbial populations, assess compost quality, diagnose biological deficiencies, and monitor progress during soil restoration.

What common mistake delayed Landen's success?

Using feedlot cattle manure overloaded his soil with nitrates, producing vigorous foliage but poor fruit production and severe pest pressure, ultimately leading him to study soil biology more deeply.

Episode Highlights

• Landen left a traditional academic path after discovering permaculture and dedicated his life to regenerative homesteading.
• Healthy soil depends as much on living biology as it does on minerals and organic matter.
• Rhizophagy has changed how scientists understand plant nutrition, showing plants directly consume microbes.
• Compost quality depends more on microbial diversity than simply creating dark, finished organic matter.
• Acidic microbial ferments can help offset alkaline soils common throughout the American Southwest.
• Living microbes improve plant nutrition, reduce pest pressure, and strengthen natural disease resistance.
• Soil microscopy allows growers to verify biological activity instead of relying solely on assumptions.
• Taking action before knowing everything is often the fastest path to learning and improving soil health.

Resources

Book Recommendation

Regenerative Soil by Matt Powers

Learn More

• Sacred Soil Solutions School (Skool community)
• Sacred Soil Solutions educational resources on microbial ferments

Follow

• Facebook: Landen Schaelling
• Instagram: Sacred Soil Solutions

Email

[email protected]

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/SacredSoil for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

In this Episode Aly Nickling-Riddle shares her journey from personal tragedy and corporate life to building a homestead in Northern Ontario. After leaving everything behind to travel in a vintage RV, she unexpectedly met her future husband, and together they pursued a simpler, more self-sufficient lifestyle. Aly discusses the realities of homesteading, the emotional and financial challenges many aspiring homesteaders underestimate, and the inspiration behind her book Homesteading: Is It the Lifestyle for You? This conversation offers a practical roadmap for anyone considering a move toward greater self-reliance.

Our Guest: Aly is a Canadian author, keynote speaker, McGill lecturer, and freelance journalist who brings a refreshingly honest perspective to modern homesteading and self-sufficient living. With a background in media, business, and more than a decade of professional writing experience, she helps people think carefully before making major lifestyle changes. Her book, Homesteading: Is It the Lifestyle for You?, encourages aspiring homesteaders to look beyond social media ideals and understand the real physical, financial, and emotional demands of rural life. Through workshops, lectures, and presentations, she focuses on practical planning, resilience, sustainability, and building realistic paths toward long-term self-reliance.

Key Topics

• Aly Riddle
• Riddle Ridge Homestead
• Homesteading: Is It the Lifestyle for You?
• Self-sufficiency and resilience
• Emotional challenges of homesteading
• Financial planning before buying land
• Community and neighbor relationships
• Rural versus urban lifestyles
• Infrastructure costs and land development
• Preparedness and disaster resilience
• Building realistic homestead plans
• Personal consultations for aspiring homesteaders
• Hurricane Helene recovery lessons
• The Encyclopedia of Country Living by Carla Emery

Key Questions Answered

Why did Aly choose the homesteading lifestyle?

After experiencing multiple personal tragedies and a divorce, Aly decided to rebuild her life from scratch. She left the corporate world, traveled in an RV, and eventually found a path toward a simpler, more intentional lifestyle.

What inspired the book Homesteading: Is It the Lifestyle for You?

Aly and her husband noticed many people leaving homesteading after only a couple of years because they entered the lifestyle with unrealistic expectations. The book was created to help people understand what they are truly signing up for before they buy land.

What makes this book different from other homesteading books?

Most homesteading books focus on skills and projects after purchasing land. Aly's book focuses on the planning, financial, emotional, and practical considerations that should happen years before purchasing property.

What is the biggest misconception about homesteading?

Many people believe homesteading is a slower, stress-free lifestyle. In reality, it replaces urban stresses with different challenges that require resilience, adaptability, and commitment.

How does Aly define homesteading?

Homesteading is any effort to become more self-sufficient and less dependent on systems that can fail. It can happen in rural settings, suburban backyards, or even urban apartments.

What hidden costs surprise new homesteaders?

Infrastructure expenses such as wells, septic systems, driveways, utilities, and ongoing maintenance are often underestimated. Many people also overestimate how quickly a homestead can generate income.

Why is community important for homesteaders?

Strong neighbor relationships provide support, skill sharing, trade opportunities, and resilience during emergencies. Community often determines long-term success more than individual effort.

What lesson did Aly learn from a tornado striking her property?

The experience reinforced that no amount of planning eliminates uncertainty. Gratitude, adaptability, and resilience become essential when nature disrupts carefully crafted plans.

What drives Aly's work today?

She is passionate about helping people move from dreaming about self-sufficiency to creating practical, realistic plans that can succeed over the long term.

Episode Highlights

• Aly rebuilt her life after personal tragedy by leaving corporate life and traveling full-time in a vintage RV.
• She met her future husband on the very first day of a work-camping opportunity in Florida.
• Their homesteading journey required far more planning and time than they originally expected.
• Emotional resilience is often more important than practical skills for long-term success.
• Homesteading can be practiced anywhere, not just on large rural properties.
• New homesteaders frequently underestimate infrastructure and development costs.
• Community relationships can be as valuable as land, tools, and equipment.
• A tornado that dropped over 100 trees on Aly's property became a lesson in gratitude and resilience.

Calls to Action & Resources

Book — Homesteading: Is It the Lifestyle for You? (Available through Amazon and local bookstores)

Instagram — Riddle Ridge Homestead

Facebook — Riddle Ridge Homestead

Consulting Services — Personal planning consultations for new and aspiring homesteaders available through the website.

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/RiddleRidge for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

 Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

Harvesting, Milling, and Cooking with Arizona’s Native Superfood

In this episode we explore mesquites as a desert food source, hosted by Romey Romero & Farmer Greg. This episodes guests are Peggy Sue Creekmore and Mike Clow and we explore one of the Sonoran Desert’s most abundant and overlooked food sources: mesquite beans. The conversation covers how to identify quality mesquite trees, harvest pods safely, dry them properly, and turn them into nutritious mesquite flour using a community hammer mill. Listeners learn why mesquite has been a staple food for centuries, how it compares to conventional flour, and how to transform this free local resource into delicious baked goods, drinks, and snacks. The episode also highlights educational workshops, harvesting walks, and community milling opportunities.

Key Topics & Entities

• Mesquite bean harvesting
• Mesquite flour production
• Community hammer mill project
• Native desert food systems
• Peggy Sue Creekmore
• Mike Clow
• Farmer Greg Peterson
• Sonoran Desert edible plants
• Palo verde beans
• Carob pods
• Ironwood seeds
• Aflatoxin prevention
• Bruchid beetles
• Urban Farm mesquite milling events

Key Questions Answered

Why is mesquite considered a valuable food source?

Mesquite pods are highly nutritious, naturally sweet, gluten-free, and rich in protein. Indigenous peoples and desert communities have relied on mesquite as a staple food across the Southwest and northern Mexico for centuries.

Do all mesquite trees produce good-tasting pods?

No. While all mesquite pods are technically edible, flavor varies significantly from tree to tree. Some are sweet and pleasant, while others can be chalky or have an unpleasant aftertaste. Tasting pods before harvesting is essential.

What does mesquite flour taste like?

Mesquite flour has a naturally sweet flavor often compared to graham crackers, caramel, or malt. Many recipes require little or no additional sugar because of the flour’s natural sweetness.

When is mesquite harvesting season?

Mesquite pods typically begin ripening in June, although weather and elevation can shift timing earlier or later. Pods should be fully tan, dry, and free of green coloration before harvesting.

How should mesquite pods be harvested?

Harvest pods directly from the tree rather than from the ground. Many harvesters use a tarp and gently shake or tap branches to collect ripe pods.

Why shouldn't pods be collected from the ground?

Ground-harvested pods can develop mold and aflatoxins, which may contaminate community milling equipment and reduce food safety.

How can harvested pods be stored properly?

Pods should be dried thoroughly in shallow boxes, baskets, dehydrators, ovens, or even a parked vehicle. Moisture is the primary cause of spoilage and milling problems.

What is a mesquite hammer mill?

A hammer mill is a specialized machine that pulverizes entire mesquite pods, including seeds and pod walls, into flour. Traditional grain mills cannot process mesquite effectively because its natural sugars gum up the machinery.

What can be made with mesquite flour?

Mesquite flour can be used in cookies, muffins, crepes, breads, energy balls, beverages, and other baked goods. It works particularly well in low-temperature baking and gluten-free recipes.

What happens to the material that doesn't become flour?

The coarse material, often called "chunky bits" or chaff, can be used to make tea, brewing mash, and other food products.

Episode Highlights

• Mesquite flour is naturally sweet enough to reduce or eliminate added sugar in many recipes.
• Flavor quality varies dramatically between mesquite trees, making tasting an important step before harvesting.
• A mature mesquite tree can produce more than 100 pounds of pods in a season.
• Harvesters should only collect pods directly from the tree to prevent mold contamination.
• Proper drying is the single most important factor for successful milling.
• The Urban Farm community hammer mill converts harvested pods into food-grade flour.
• Mesquite flour is gluten-free and requires binders such as eggs, chia, or applesauce when baking.
• Desert trees such as palo verde, carob, ironwood, and mesquite offer significant edible resources often overlooked by modern food systems.

Calls to Action & Resources

• Mesquite Harvesting Walks — https://urbanfarm.org/mesquite
• Mesquite Milling Appointments — https://urbanfarm.org/mesquite
• Urban Farm Educational Programs — https://urbanfarm.org
• Desert Food Tree Guide — https://learn.desertkitchen.net/trees

Visit www.UrbanFarm.org/990 for the show notes and links on this episode!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg, Janis or Ray to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

In this Episode Beth Cole of Riverview Farms shares how local farms strengthen communities, preserve farmland, improve food security, and support healthier ecosystems. Drawing from her experience as a market gardener in Western North Carolina, Beth explains the value of Certified Naturally Grown certification, community-supported agriculture (CSA), farmers markets, and home gardening. She also reflects on lessons learned from Hurricane Helene, the challenges of starting a farm, and why growing food is one of the most important skills families can develop.

Our Guest: Beth Cole is a market gardener in Asheville, North Carolina. At their farm they grow a variety of certified naturally grown veggies and cut flowers, are passionate about preserving farmland in the region and growing real food that nourishes the community.

Key Topics

• Beth Cole
• Riverview Farms
• Market gardening
• Asparagus production
• Certified Naturally Grown (CNG)
• Local food systems
• Community Supported Agriculture (CSA)
• Farmers markets
• Hurricane Helene recovery
• Soil health and floodplain farming
• Garden plant starts
• Dirt Craft Living Soils
• Food security and preparedness
• Growing food in Western North Carolina

Key Questions Answered

What is market gardening?

Market gardening is small-scale intensive food production focused on growing a diverse mix of vegetables and flowers for local markets, restaurants, and consumers. Riverview Farms grows on roughly two acres while maintaining additional acreage for wildlife habitat, hay production, and floodplain preservation.

How does asparagus grow?

Asparagus is a long-term perennial crop typically started from crowns. Growers wait several years before harvesting heavily, with full production often beginning around year five. Well-maintained asparagus beds can remain productive for 15 years or longer.

What is Certified Naturally Grown?

Certified Naturally Grown follows standards similar to organic certification but is designed for smaller farms. The program emphasizes sustainability, biodiversity, wildlife habitat, and farmland preservation while relying on peer-to-peer farm inspections rather than third-party auditors.

Why does buying from local farms matter?

Purchasing from local farms helps preserve farmland, protect watersheds, support pollinators, strengthen local economies, and provide farmers with a sustainable livelihood. Local food purchases keep money circulating within the community.

What is a CSA?

Community Supported Agriculture allows customers to purchase a subscription to a farm's harvest. Members share both the risks and rewards of farming while providing farmers with critical early-season income.

What positive lessons came from Hurricane Helene?

Although the storm caused significant damage throughout the region, Beth observed that floodplain farmland acted as a natural sponge, reducing downstream impacts. In some areas, nutrient-rich sediments deposited by floodwaters improved soil quality and organic matter.

Why should gardeners buy plants locally?

Locally grown plant starts are better adapted to regional growing conditions and often outperform plants shipped long distances to big-box stores. Supporting local growers also strengthens the regional food economy.

Why do new gardeners struggle?

Gardening is a learned skill that requires time, observation, and experience. Success depends on understanding local conditions, improving soil health, and accepting mistakes as part of the learning process.

Why are farmers markets important?

Farmers markets provide the freshest possible produce, often harvested within 24 hours of sale. They create direct relationships between growers and consumers while supporting local agriculture.

What motivates Beth's farming work?

Beth is driven by concerns about chronic disease, declining food quality, and the disconnect between people and real food. She believes locally grown produce can improve both individual and community health.

Episode Highlights

• Beth transitioned from humanitarian work and Montana grain farming into market gardening in North Carolina.
• Riverview Farms shifted from primarily asparagus production to diversified vegetable and flower production.
• Asparagus requires patience, often taking five years before reaching full harvest potential.
• Certified Naturally Grown certification strengthens farmer-to-farmer learning through peer inspections.
• Buying local food directly supports farmland preservation, pollinator habitat, and watershed protection.
• Hurricane Helene highlighted the important role farms play in absorbing floodwaters and protecting communities.
• Local plant starts provide gardeners with healthier, more resilient plants adapted to regional conditions.
• Farmers markets offer unmatched freshness while building relationships between farmers and consumers.
• Soil quality is one of the most important investments gardeners can make.
• Gardening success comes from persistence, observation, and continuous learning.

Calls to Action & Resources

Certified Naturally Grown

https://www.naturallygrown.org

Riverview Farms NC

Facebook: Riverview Farms NC

Appalachian Sustainable Agriculture Project (ASAP)

https://asapconnections.org

Dirt Craft Living Soils

https://dirtcraftorganics.com

Recommended Book

Grow Great Vegetables in North Carolina — A practical guide for understanding regional growing conditions, soil, weather patterns, and crop selection.

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/RiverviewFarms for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

The Preserver's Garden: Featuring Staci and Jeremy Hill of Gooseberry Bridge Farm

In this Episode Staci and Jeremy share their journey from suburban living to operating an 11-acre farm in the Ozark Mountains of Missouri. What began as a small raised-bed garden evolved into a lifestyle centered on food production, preservation, agritourism, and self-sufficiency. In this conversation, they discuss how preserving food became a cornerstone of their family's food security strategy, why they intentionally grow crops for canning and freeze-drying, and how planning a "preserver's garden" differs from traditional gardening. They also share lessons learned from preservation failures, the economics of home food production, and the inspiration behind their book, The Preserver's Garden.

Our Guests: Stacy and Jeremy Hill are the owners of Gooseberry Bridge Farm, located in the Ozark Mountains of Southwest Missouri. They moved from the typical house at the end of a cul-de-sac in a subdivision to an 11-acre farm almost 10 years ago, and haven't looked back. In addition to producing and preserving as much of their own food by canning, freezing, dehydrating, and freeze-drying their garden harvests, they also operate a you-pick flower farm with different varieties of flowers throughout the year. Their goals are to share their farm with the community and to be as self-sufficient as possible within the boundaries of what is realistic in today's world.

Key Topics

• Gooseberry Bridge Farm
• Staci and Jeremy Hill
• The Preserver's Garden
• Food preservation strategies
• Canning and water bath processing
• Freeze-drying food for long-term storage
• Growing for food security
• Building a year-round pantry
• Preserving tomatoes, peaches, beans, and zucchini
• Family involvement in food production
• Agritourism and farm experiences
• Teaching lost homesteading skills
• Foxfire books and traditional knowledge
• Reducing grocery costs through food production

Key Questions Answered

How did Staci and Jeremy transition from suburbia to farming?

They began with a small raised-bed garden after getting married and gradually expanded their food production over two decades. After moving to an 11-acre property in Missouri, they increased their gardening, added livestock, and eventually turned the farm into their primary source of income through agritourism and value-added products.

What inspired them to focus on food preservation?

As their family grew, they became interested in preserving traditional skills they could pass on to future generations. Each year they learned a new preservation method, eventually mastering canning, dehydrating, freeze-drying, and food storage.

What does a well-stocked pantry look like?

A successful pantry is built around foods a family actually enjoys eating. Rather than preserving what is easiest, they recommend preserving crops you enjoy and grow well. Their pantry includes extensive stores of tomato sauce, salsa, green beans, soups, fruits, and freeze-dried foods.

What crops provide the biggest return for food security?

Their highest-performing crops include tomatoes, bush beans, zucchini, summer squash, and okra. They emphasize growing large quantities and "outplanting failure" rather than constantly battling pests.

Why do they freeze-dry food?

Freeze-drying dramatically increases shelf life, often up to 25 years, while preserving flavor and nutrition. It also expands the range of foods they can store compared to traditional canning.

How do they handle large harvests of tomatoes?

They harvest tomatoes at the blush stage, allow them to ripen indoors, process them in batches, and often freeze excess harvests for winter canning. This approach reduces summer workload and avoids heating the kitchen during hot weather.

Why was The Preserver's Garden written?

A publisher noticed a gap between gardening books and preservation books. The result was a book focused on planning a garden specifically for preservation goals rather than simply dealing with surplus produce after harvest.

How has preserving food impacted their household finances?

Despite having more children and growing teenagers, their grocery expenses have declined over the years while food quality has improved. Producing and preserving food has reduced their dependence on grocery stores.

What preservation failures taught them valuable lessons?

Experiments freeze-drying sweet hot sauce and banana puree resulted in spectacular messes due to sugar expansion during the freeze-drying process. These failures reinforced the importance of testing and learning through experience.

What advice do they give beginners?

Start small. Preserve one thing, grow one crop, and build confidence through small successes. Fear and misinformation often prevent people from getting started.

Episode Highlights

• Staci and Jeremy moved from a suburban cul-de-sac to an 11-acre farm in the Ozarks nearly a decade ago.
• Their farm now supports agritourism, a flower operation, livestock experiences, and food production.
• A surprise harvest of 300–400 pounds of peaches led to a week-long experiment with new preservation recipes.
• Their pantry functions as a personalized grocery store stocked with foods their family regularly eats.
• They grow approximately 100 tomato plants and harvest up to 30–40 pounds of tomatoes per day during peak season.
• Freeze-drying transformed their food preservation capacity and significantly expanded their pantry.
• Their children actively participate in gardening, food preservation, and homesteading skills.
• An Instagram post featuring their pantry went viral and helped inspire the creation of their book.

Calls to Action & Resources

Book: The Preserver's Garden — https://thepreserversgarden.com

Farm Website: Gooseberry Bridge Farm — https://gooseberrybridge.com

Instagram: Gooseberry Bridge Farm — https://www.instagram.com/gooseberrybridgefarm

Recommended Reading: Foxfire Book Series

Visit www.urbanfarm.org/PreserversGarden for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

Join our monthly Seed Chat at SeedChat.org

In This Podcast: In this monthly Seed Chat, Greg Peterson and Bill McDorman explore the global rules governing seed ownership, seed saving, biodiversity, and agricultural policy. The conversation dives into international treaties, plant patenting, farmers’ rights, and the growing tension between the Global North and Global South over control of genetic resources. Bill shares firsthand experiences attending United Nations treaty negotiations and working with Indigenous seed sovereignty issues through Native Seeds/SEARCH. The episode also highlights why everyday gardeners and farmers should become “seed citizens” by saving and sharing locally adapted seeds.

Bill McDorman is a renowned seed saver, educator, and advocate for agricultural biodiversity. He co-founded the Rocky Mountain Seed Alliance and has spent decades teaching gardeners and farmers how to grow, save, and share heirloom seeds. Through workshops, speaking, and mentorship, Bill inspires communities to strengthen local food systems, preserve regional seed diversity, and protect seed sovereignty for future generations.

Key Topics

• Seed libraries and locally adapted seed sharing
• International Treaty on Plant Genetic Resources for Food and Agriculture (ITPGRFA)
• UPOV and global plant variety protection laws
• World Trade Organization (WTO) seed policy influence
• Farmers’ rights and seed sovereignty
• Plant patenting and intellectual property in agriculture
• Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD)
• Nagoya Protocol and access-benefit sharing
• Digital Sequence Information (DSI) and genetic ownership
• Native Seeds/SEARCH and Indigenous seed stewardship
• Organic Seed Alliance and seed policy debates
• Global North vs. Global South agricultural power dynamics
• Seed banks and the Multilateral System (MLS)
• The importance of saving open-pollinated seeds
• The future resilience of local food systems

Key Questions Answered

What is the International Treaty on Plant Genetic Resources for Food and Agriculture?

The ITPGRFA is a legally binding international treaty created to govern the conservation, sharing, and equitable use of plant genetic resources for food and agriculture. It officially entered into force in 2004 and now includes participation from more than 180 countries.

Why do global seed treaties matter to everyday gardeners and farmers?

These treaties influence who can save seeds, who profits from plant genetics, and how agricultural biodiversity is preserved. The policies affect food security, seed availability, farmer independence, and long-term resilience of local food systems.

What is UPOV and why is it controversial?

UPOV is an international agreement that grants intellectual property protections to plant breeders. Critics argue that newer versions of UPOV weaken farmers’ traditional rights to save and replant seeds while strengthening corporate control over agriculture.

How does the WTO influence seed laws around the world?

According to Bill McDorman, countries seeking participation in global trade systems often adopt UPOV-style protections as part of WTO-related trade expectations, creating pressure on smaller nations to align with industrial seed systems.

What is the Nagoya Protocol?

The Nagoya Protocol is an international agreement designed to ensure fair and equitable sharing of benefits arising from genetic resources. It attempts to address historical exploitation of Indigenous and Global South biodiversity by pharmaceutical and agricultural corporations.

What is Digital Sequence Information (DSI)?

DSI refers to genetic sequencing data derived from crops and plant varieties. A major debate centers around who owns this information and whether communities that stewarded these crops for generations should share in the economic benefits created from their genetic data.

What are farmers’ rights in global seed policy?

Farmers’ rights include the ability to save, use, exchange, and sell farm-saved seed. These rights remain one of the most contested issues in international agricultural negotiations.

Why are seed libraries important?

Seed libraries help preserve locally adapted seed varieties while strengthening regional food resilience. They also create community networks for knowledge sharing and decentralized seed stewardship.

How did Native Seeds/SEARCH navigate Indigenous seed stewardship?

Bill shares stories from his time directing Native Seeds/SEARCH, including working with Zuni and Hopi communities to renegotiate relationships around seed stewardship, naming rights, and seed distribution.

Why does Bill McDorman encourage people to attend UN treaty meetings?

He believes participation in international seed policy discussions is critical for protecting biodiversity and farmers’ rights. Attending these events allows citizens, gardeners, and small farmers to directly engage with global agricultural policy.

Episode Highlights

• Bill discovers a seed library inside a small-town New Mexico library and reflects on the importance of locally adapted seeds.
• Greg and Bill explain how seed laws emerged alongside industrial agriculture and large-scale seed commerce.
• Bill breaks down UPOV, WTO policy, and how plant patenting transformed global agriculture.
• The conversation explores how Indigenous plant genetics were historically extracted and commercialized.
• Bill recounts receiving a cease-and-desist letter regarding Zuni bean varieties while directing Native Seeds/SEARCH.
• A deep discussion unfolds around Digital Sequence Information and the ownership of plant DNA data.
• Bill explains why small farmers across Africa increasingly believe they no longer have the right to save seeds.
• The episode concludes with a call for more “seed citizens” actively saving and sharing seeds locally.

Resources

Resource — Seed Chat Live Events — SeedChat.org

Podcast — Urban Farm Podcast

Organization — UPOV – International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants

Organization — World Trade Organization (WTO)

Organization — Commission on Genetic Resources for Food and Agriculture (CGRFA)

Treaty — International Treaty on Plant Genetic Resources for Food and Agriculture (ITPGRFA)

Organization — Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD)

Resource — Nagoya Protocol on Access and Benefit-sharing

Community — Organic Seed Alliance

Organization — Native Seeds/SEARCH

Event — Great American Seed Up — First weekend in November in Phoenix, Arizona

Visit UrbanFarm.org/987 for the show notes and links on this episode!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?

The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.

You can chat with Greg to get permaculture based feedback.

Click HERE to learn more!

*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.