Drew Perkins welcomes math teacher and author Michael Pershan to explore the history of CLT and how he thinks about applying Cognitive Load Theory in his math teaching.

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Key Takeaways:

• Cognitive Load Theory as a Flexible Toolkit: Cognitive Load Theory is a context-dependent framework rather than a universal "silver bullet." Effective application requires adapting instruction to student proficiency—specifically accounting for the "Expertise Reversal Effect"—to ensure teaching methods remain calibrated to the learner's current stage.
• The Procedural-Conceptual Synthesis: Procedural fluency and conceptual understanding are not competing forces but complementary pillars of learning. Similar to how a baseball player refines their swing through technical coaching, students need both automaticity to handle complex tasks and explicit principles to assign meaning, with these skills developing concurrently.
• Prioritizing Classroom Reality over Academic Tribalism: Teachers need a pragmatic toolkit built for the "180-day reality" of the classroom, not just abstract pedagogical debates. Educators should be wary of over-applying narrow, isolated cognitive science findings to complex, holistic subjects and instead focus on whether research adequately maps the "whole territory" of daily instruction.
• Moving Beyond False Dichotomies: Debates such as "memory versus thinking" often create unhelpful academic divisions. In practice, these terms describe the same process from different angles; long-term memory is the repository of learning, and active, deep thinking is the necessary vehicle for building it.

Episode Highlights & Timecodes

• [00:07:34] Research Controversies: A candid discussion on the "You Cubed" project and the challenges of engaging in nuanced, critical dialogue with figures in the education field.
• [00:18:24] The Nature of Theory: Exploring why theories in human-centered sciences are more difficult to define and pin down than those in "hard" sciences.
• [00:23:15] From Critic to Proponent: How Michael moved from a skeptical stance on Cognitive Load Theory (CLT) to finding significant practical value in it through independent study and experimentation.
• [00:30:58] The Reality of School Culture: Why Michael is skeptical about teacher preparation programs, arguing that school culture often overrides academic training.
• [00:38:50] The "Political Coding" of Instruction: Examining why explicit instruction is increasingly viewed as "right-leaning" and why Michael critiques this tribalistic mentality as unhelpful.
• [00:43:35] The 180-Day Reality: An argument for a practical "theory of worksheets" that prioritizes daily classroom management over abstract debates.
• [00:47:47] The Expertise Reversal Effect: Why teaching methods must adapt to student proficiency, balancing productive struggle with direct instruction.
• [01:05:15] Defining Mathematical Maturity: Breaking down the difference between "fast" procedural knowledge (automaticity) and "explicit" linguistic knowledge (principles).
• [01:08:51] Procedural & Conceptual Interdependency: Why these shouldn't be taught separately; they act as "bumpers" for each other, similar to how a baseball player uses technical coaching to refine their swing.
• [01:12:04] Memory vs. Thinking: Addressing the false dichotomy; why long-term memory is the repository of learning and thinking is the vehicle to build it.
• [01:16:45] Over-Generalizing Cognitive Science: A critique of taking isolated findings (like "growth mindset") and over-applying them as universal solutions to complex, holistic subjects.

In this episode Drew Perkins talks with Haili Hughes, Associate Professor at La Trobe University in Melbourne, Australia about her work and thinking on education and teaching. More specifically, this conversation touched on matters of education tribalism, research, it's lethal mutations, and how to put those findings into practice as part of ongoing teacher development and empowerment.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.Some Key Takeaways

• Moving Beyond Educational Tribalism: The "traditional vs. progressive" binary is an unhelpful framework that fuels toxic online discourse. Instead of engaging in partisan arguments, educators should focus on identifying and solving shared "learning problems" to bridge ideological divides.
• Avoiding "Lethal Mutations": Implementing educational research requires more than just following mandates. Techniques often suffer from "lethal mutations," where the original intent is lost or misused for classroom management unless they are adapted to specific subjects and pedagogical contexts.
• Balancing Efficiency and Meaning-Making: While "checking for understanding" routines (like mini-whiteboards) are useful for efficiency, they cannot replace deep dialogic work. Teachers must ensure students have time to debate, inquire, and articulate complex thoughts.
• Reframing Teacher Development: Current bureaucratic, deficit-based evaluation models often alienate teachers. Professional growth is better fostered through dialogue-based coaching and by explicitly protecting time in the school day for professional reflection, rather than relying on top-down observation.
• Adapting Research to the Classroom: There is no one-size-fits-all approach to cognitive science. Teachers need the agency to combine evidence-based research with their own professional expertise to make informed decisions that fit their specific curriculum and student needs.
• Advice for the Modern Educator: In an era of high public scrutiny, government mandates, and constant noise, teachers—especially new ones—are best served by tuning out external pressure and keeping their focus centered on the children they serve.

Episode Highlights & Timecodes

• 00:07:35 – Haili's Journey: Haili Hughes introduces her background in English teaching, school leadership, and her path from the UK to her new role at La Trobe University in Melbourne.
• 00:14:25 – Beyond Educational Tribalism: A candid discussion on breaking down the "traditional vs. progressive" binary in education. Haili argues for focusing on shared learning problems rather than online ideology.
• 00:17:36 – Avoiding "Lethal Mutations": Why educational research often gets misinterpreted, misused, or turned into "pet projects" that don't actually impact the classroom.
• 00:27:11 – The Social Media Problem: Why platforms like X (formerly Twitter) are often poor proxies for nuanced pedagogical debate and why good faith is missing in many online discussions.
• 00:30:51 – Making Research Useful: Moving away from the view that research is "chucked down from towers" and toward a model where teachers use evidence to make professional decisions.
• 00:37:33 – Practical Cognitive Load Theory: How to move past the "bingo card" of educational jargon and apply cognitive science to solve specific, real-world learning problems.
• 00:42:32 – Checking for Understanding vs. Meaning Making: Why efficient tools like mini-whiteboards are not a replacement for deep dialogue and why we must preserve space for student inquiry.
• 00:46:30 – Reclaiming Inquiry: Haili explains why reframing inquiry as metacognition—an evidence-based practice—can help bridge the gap between seemingly opposing camps.
• 00:59:58 – Teacher Pre-service & Expertise: The danger of shoehorning cognitive science into teacher development and treating all teachers as "empty buckets" to be filled.
• 01:05:53 – Reforming Teacher Evaluation: Moving away from bureaucratic, clipboard-based observations toward dialogue-based coaching that empowers teachers to examine their own instructional decisions.
• 01:13:25 – Advice for New Teachers: Haili's powerful closing advice: Ignore the external noise—government mandates, public scrutiny, and complaints—and keep your focus on the children in front of you.

Drew Perkins talks with Mark Enser about his Substack piece titled, A Pedagogy for Powerful Knowledge | Why dialogue, enquiry and cognitive science aren't competing answers. This episode addresses questions like: "How to combine cognitive science with inquiry-based learning", "Differences between classroom discussion and dialogic teaching", "Why inquiry requires high-level scaffolding", and "How to avoid algorithmic teaching in the classroom".

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Some Key Takeaways

• The "Future Three" Pedagogical Model: Education should move away from abstract, student-led theories toward a "Future Three" approach that prioritizes objective knowledge transmission as the foundation for deeper inquiry.1 Synthesizing Pedagogy: Powerful knowledge is not achieved by picking one method; it requires a synergy of cognitive science (for stability), dialogic teaching (for deeper truth-seeking), and structured inquiry.
• Dialogue vs. Discussion: Discussion is often superficial and biologically primary. True dialogue is a trained skill requiring support and Socratic guidance to help students critique models and search for truth.
• Structuring Inquiry: Inquiry is not "minimal guidance." Effective inquiry must be highly scaffolded, using conceptual questions as "maps" that provide a clear purpose for the learning journey and guide students through the application of foundational knowledge.
• Avoiding "Cargo Cult" Pedagogy: Teachers must prioritize intent over rote, algorithmic application of cognitive science. Methods like retrieval practice should require deeper cognitive effort rather than being used as a checklist of simple recall techniques.
• Progression for Novices: While integrating all three pillars is the goal, cognitive science practices are often the most stable starting point for novice teachers, as they are easier to structure into playbooks and carry the least risk of unproductive outcomes.

Episode Highlights & Timecodes

• [00:03:04] Mark Enser's Background: From 20 years as a geography teacher to an Ofsted inspector and freelance consultant.
• [00:12:02] Pedagogical Evolution: The shift from a "Future Two" mindset (student-led) to a "Future Three" model (prioritizing objective knowledge).
• [00:18:15] The Core Thesis: Why "powerful knowledge" requires a synergy of cognitive science, dialogic teaching, and structured inquiry.
• [00:20:31] Discussion vs. Dialogue: Distinguishing between the social behavior of discussion and the trained, guided skill of dialogue.
• [00:26:12] The Search for Truth: Using the dialectic in education to critique models rather than just memorizing facts.
• [00:33:53] Inquiry vs. Discovery Learning: Why effective inquiry requires high-level scaffolding rather than "minimal guidance."
• [00:38:04] Inquiry as a Framing Tool: Using conceptual questions as "maps" to provide purpose and bound the curriculum.
• [00:46:23] Avoiding "Cargo Cult" Cognitive Science: Moving beyond rote algorithms and checklists to prioritize true teacher intent.
• [00:51:26] Advice for Novice Teachers: Prioritizing cognitive science as a stable baseline before layering in more complex dialogic and inquiry-based strategies.

Drew Perkins talks with with author and educator Christian Moore to critically examine the "just tell them" model of instruction often championed by popular "science of learning" advocates. Drawing from his book, Teaching Meaning: What Works When Telling Isn't Enough, Moore introduces the framework of "enactivism"—the cognitive science-based perspective that meaning cannot be simply transmitted from teacher to student, but must be actively enacted through experience. This conversation challenges the reliance on scripted, atomized curricula and argues for a "Teaching With" approach that prioritizes professional judgment, relational adaptation, and the critical role of variation in student learning.

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Key Takeaways & Learning Objectives

• The Enactivist Framework: Understand the shift from viewing students as "storage vessels" to "active inferencers" who construct meaning through mutual, relational adaptation.
• Defining Instructional Stances: Distinguish between "Teaching To" (agreement-based), "Exploring With" (discovery-based), and "Teaching With" (relational adaptation), and why the latter is the most effective for deep understanding.
• The Role of Variation: Discover why "variety gives meaning"—and how structuring lessons around key distinctions rather than isolated facts helps students make sense of complex systems.
• Critiquing the "Science of Learning": Explore the limitations of pre-requisite knowledge checks and rigid cognitive load strategies that can sometimes deskill teachers and reduce learning to shallow recitation.
• Restoring Professional Agency: Learn why experienced educators must prioritize community of practice over top-down, punitive administrative mandates to prevent the "deskilling vortex."

Episode Highlights & Timecodes

• 00:10:02 – The Thesis of Enactivism: An introduction to Christian Moore's work and how enactivism bridges the gap between progressive discovery and traditionalist instruction.
• 00:13:12 – The Three Stances: Moore defines the framework of "Teaching To," "Exploring With," and "Teaching With."
• 00:17:01 – The Critique of "Just Tell Them": Why the "science of learning" advocacy can lead to a culture of achievement that prioritizes performance over authentic understanding.
• 00:36:38 – Meaning as an Enacted Process: Why teaching is a biological and relational process, not a data transmission problem.
• 00:45:41 – Planning for Key Distinctions: Practical strategies for lesson planning that center on distinguishing concepts rather than flat delivery of content.
• 01:10:45 – Premeditated vs. Relational Teaching: The danger of "atomized" lessons and why real-time, feedback-driven teaching is essential for cognitive development.
• 01:23:03 – Combating the "Deskilling Vortex": A critical look at how scripted curricula and high-stakes inspection cultures impact teacher retention and professional growth.

In this episode of the ThoughtStretchers Education Podcast, Drew Perkins talks with leading education thinkers Dylan Wiliam, Jo Boaler, and Chris Harrison to explore the work and life of Paul Black and his profound impact on teaching and learning, especially the concept of assessment for learning.

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Episode Overview

In this special episode, host Drew Perkins brings together a panel of world-renowned educational figures, Dylan Wiliam, Jo Boaler, and Chris Harrison, to evaluate the profound, global impact of the late Paul Black on international education policy and classroom practice. Transitioning from a distinguished background in physics and crystallography to become the absolute cornerstone of modern science education and assessment framework, Paul Black fundamentally reshaped how the world defines student evaluation. This conversation bridges historical policy milestones, such as Black's masterful chairing of the 1987 Task Group on Assessment and Testing (TGAT), with modern instructional hurdles, illustrating beautifully why assessment must serve as a vehicle for authentic meaning-making, intellectual humility, and autonomous learner agency rather than a mechanical system for tracking or ranking students.

Core Themes & Key Takeaways

• The Historical Architecture: The 1987 TGAT Reform: Commissioned by Secretary of State for Education Kenneth Baker, Paul Black chaired the Task Group on Assessment and Testing. His team proposed a revolutionary, age-independent progressive assessment scale that reframed student growth as continuous development rather than static metrics. Despite major political pushback, this foundational blueprint successfully dictated national curriculum frameworks in England for two decades.
• Inside the Black Box: Moving Research directly into Practitioners' Hands: Dylan Wiliam and Chris Harrison recount the deliberate, user-centric choice to look past dense, extensive academic journal articles and publish the seminal 1998 work, Inside the Black Box, as a slim, highly accessible 28-page booklet. This targeted dissemination placed actionable research directly in front of busy classroom practitioners. Furthermore, Wiliam clarifies why their historical look was a configurative review meant to map the conceptual schema of the field rather than a simple meta-analysis.
• Redefining Assessment for Learning (AfL): Dialogue over Spreadsheets: The panel issues a stark, cross-continental warning against institutional evaluation frameworks (heavily prevalent in the United States) that compress formative assessment into teacher-led data entries on spreadsheets every few weeks. True Assessment for Learning is an interactive, real-time diagnostic process rooted in rich classroom dialogue, extracting student misconceptions, and adjusting the immediate pedagogical path.
• Cultivating Learner Agency: Releasing "Explorer Mode": Formative feedback must move toward its own redundancy, systematically transitioning students out of passive compliance ("Passenger Mode") or fragile grade-chasing ("Achiever Mode") into self-regulating agents of their own intellectual development ("Explorer Mode").
• The Pedagogy of Humility and Curiosity: Jo Boaler and Chris Harrison share intimate reflections on Paul Black's style as a PhD advisor and colleague. Despite his massive national stature, Black routinely deferred to doctoral students, treating them as co-investigators and displaying immense intellectual curiosity about how young minds think.

Episode Timeline & Milestone Highlights

Use these timestamp tokens to jump directly to key points in the panel's conversation:

• 00:00:11 – Introductions, cross-continental logistics, and session framing.
• 00:04:25 – Unpacking the historical impact: Paul Black's transition from physics and crystallography to science education policy.
• 00:08:16 – Dylan Wiliam outlines his multi-decade intellectual partnership with Black starting at Chelsea College.
• 00:10:36 – Chris Harrison details Black's post-retirement career and managing 19 international translational action research projects.
• 00:13:39 – Jo Boaler discusses Black's guidance on validating qualitative research data and handling academic journal rejections.
• 00:19:43 – The inner workings of the 1987 Task Group on Assessment and Testing (TGAT) and Kenneth Baker's national curriculum scale.
• 00:22:05 – Subject-specific progression models: Unpacking the "progression is harder" vs. "progression is better" friction across disciplines.
• 00:26:19 – The rationale behind a configurative review over traditional meta-analysis inside poorly theorized fields.
• 00:31:57 – Collaborative research dynamics: Working alongside teachers to let them build localized knowledge instead of imposing top-down scripts.
• 00:36:06 – Integrating growth mindset structures into math classrooms via open-ended, speed-independent tasks.
• 00:41:44 – Cultivating student self-regulation as an alternative to US data entry tracking spreadsheets.
• 00:47:47 – Exploring the three distinct pathways of progression: harder, better, and more independent.
• 00:58:01 – Debunking the mathematical efficiency myth: Reasoning and pattern discovery vs. computational speed.
• 01:06:02 – Long-term learning goals vs. short-term multiple-choice testing metrics in an AI-driven future.
• 01:10:05 – Teachers as knowledge workers: David Daniel's research on why lab findings reverse when deployed into complex classrooms.
• 01:15:56 – Utilizing psychometrics (Mark Wilson's framework) to discover what a student needs to learn next rather than simply to rank them.

Drew Perkins talks with James Moore, author of Explain Yourself: Master the Art of Explanation in the Age of AI, about how educators and communicators can effectively teach complex concepts.

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James, a former physics teacher and writer for the science-focused YouTube channel Veritasium, champions the core principle of "Show, Don't Just Tell". They unpack his powerful framework for clear explanation: SAD (Structure, Audience, Detail). The conversation tackles the tension between explicit instruction and inquiry, the role of cognitive load in learning, and why balancing technical accuracy with clarity is essential. Learn how starting with concrete examples (a bottom-up approach) and creating a curiosity gap can make the content click.

Tune in for a masterclass on teaching, communication, and understanding in the age of AI.

The discussion features James Moore, who shares his mission to help people explain complex concepts as clearly as possible.

• [0:05:07] The Motivation Behind Explain Yourself: James's transition from a classroom physics teacher to an online content creator required creating content that is understood the first time, leading to his obsession with clear explanation.
• [0:06:50] The Core Thesis: Show, Don't Tell: The most effective way to explain something is often not to tell, but to show through stories or examples that connect to biologically primary knowledge.
• [0:08:45] The SAD Framework: Explaining complex concepts is best approached through three lenses: Structure, Audience, and Detail.
• [0:16:22] Cognitive Load, Curiosity, and Schema Building: Curiosity acts as a motivator that helps ease the friction of cognitive load, with the goal of making content "click".
• [0:18:50] Expert vs. Learner Thinking: Experts store information top-down, but teaching should start bottom-up, using a series of examples to allow learners to infer the rule and build schema.

Instructional Strategies & Audience

• [0:22:13] Checking for Understanding: Asking "Does that make sense?" is a poor proxy for comprehension. Use targeted application problems or specific questions instead.
• [0:28:18] Unpacking Structure (S): Start with a specific, concrete example to create context and an image in the learner's mind before introducing the abstract, general rule.
• [0:31:37] Unpacking Audience (A): This lens involves balancing technical accuracy with clarity. Use simple models, like the staircase analogy for quantum physics, that can be refined later to avoid losing the audience.
• [0:45:34] Unpacking Detail (D): The principle is "Less is More" to manage cognitive load. It also means atomizing complex concepts to avoid the "curse of knowledge," where experts assume their audience has already chunked the information.
• [0:53:28] The Narrative Structure: Using the "And, But, Therefore/So" story structure helps maintain audience attention by constantly building tension, conflict, and resolution.
• [0:58:20] Content Dictates Modality: The subject matter (e.g., learning a language or installing a car part) should drive the choice of teaching modality (video vs. text) rather than relying on learner preferences.

Drew Perkins talks with education journalist and author Holly Korbey to explore the complex intersection of cognitive science and progressive pedagogy. While the "Reading Wars" often dominate headlines, Drew and Holly dig deeper into the underlying tensions between explicit, knowledge-rich instruction and the desire for student-led inquiry.

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The heart of this conversation focuses on bridging the gap between human cognitive architecture and the ideals of inquiry-based learning. Holly and Drew discuss the "false dichotomy" that often pits these two approaches against each other. They explore how a deep foundation of background knowledge is actually the essential fuel that makes high-level inquiry possible.

Holly shares insights into how schools are successfully integrating these worlds. They discuss "engineering the discovery," where teachers use explicit instruction to build the necessary schema, then step back to allow students to engage in meaningful inquiry. This episode serves as a roadmap for moving beyond tribalism and toward an integrated model of teaching.

Timestamped Episode Timeline

• [00:04:15] Introduction to Holly Korbey – From education reporting to researching civic education.
• [00:10:45] The Tension Between Science and Inquiry – Why cognitive science and progressive ideals are often viewed as being at odds.
• [00:16:30] Knowledge as the Engine of Inquiry – How building robust long-term memory allows for more complex questioning.
• [00:23:15] The "Both/And" Approach – Moving past tribal camps to find a balance between guidance and agency.
• [00:32:05] Schema Building in Early Years – Why content-rich instruction is vital for developing critical thinkers.
• [00:41:40] Navigating Controversial Topics – Using cognitive tools to facilitate deep inquiry into "hard history."
• [00:50:55] Reimagining Professional Learning – Shifting staff discussions from "tools" to pedagogical philosophy.
• [01:06:40] Practical Advice for Educators – How to integrate cognitive load principles into an inquiry classroom.
• [01:13:20] Closing Remarks – Where to follow Holly's work.

Drew Perkins welcomes back Ted Dintersmith to discuss the urgent need to move away from an education system obsessed with standardized testing and toward one that empowers students to do real, meaningful work. In his new book, Aftermath, and documentary, Multiple Choice, Dintersmith argues that our current system is "perfectly designed" to produce results that are increasingly irrelevant in an age of AI and automation.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

• • Ted Dintersmith.com
  • Book: Aftermath: The Life-Changing Math That Schools Won't Teach You
  • Film: multiplechoicefilm.com
  • The ThoughtStretchers (then TeachThought) Podcast Ep. 115 Let's Talk About What School Could Be (2018)

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A significant portion of this conversation focuses on Ted's critique of the traditional math "treadmill." Drawing from his new book, Ted explores the "What and How" of teaching math. He argues that the current "What"—a heavy focus on symbolic manipulation and rote procedures—is largely obsolete.

Regarding the "How," Ted shares inspiring examples of teachers who have moved toward Project-Based Learning kind of instruction. He describes classrooms where math is taught through real-world applications—like analyzing local economic trends—where learning happens through trial, error, and collaborative inquiry. By centering math on student agency, Ted argues we can move from "math trauma" to empowering students to solve complex, non-routine problems.

Timestamped Episode Timeline

• [00:04:15] Introduction to Ted Dintersmith – From venture capital to a 50-state tour investigating the future of education.
• [00:09:30] The Flaw in the System – Why our schools are designed for a world that no longer exists.
• [00:15:45] The Math Treadmill – Ted breaks down why our current math curriculum is a "filter" rather than a foundation.
• [00:22:10] The "What" of Math – Shifting from symbolic manipulation to data literacy and quantitative reasoning.
• [00:28:40] The "How" of Math – Using real-world problems to teach mathematical thinking instead of rote procedures.
• [00:35:15] The Impact of AI – How generative AI makes the "calculational" aspect of math a commodity.
• [00:43:05] Defining PEAK Learning – Breaking down Purpose, Essential Skills, Agency, and Knowledge.
• [00:52:20] Performance-Based Assessment – Moving toward portfolios and "defense of learning" models.
• [01:05:30] Advice for Parents – How to advocate for a more meaningful educational experience for your children.
• [01:12:45] Closing Remarks – Where to find Ted's books and follow his ongoing work in school reform.

Drew Perkins talks with David Geary, a cognitive developmental and evolutionary psychologist and Curator's Professor in the Department of Psychological Sciences at the University of Missouri. They dive into the foundations of evolutionary educational psychology, exploring how our evolutionary history shapes the way we learn today and why certain types of knowledge are fundamentally more difficult to acquire than others.

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The core of the conversation centers on Geary's groundbreaking distinction between biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge. Primary knowledge includes skills like spoken language, social navigation, and basic folk physics, which humans have evolved to acquire effortlessly and instinctively. In contrast, secondary knowledge—such as reading, writing, and advanced mathematics—is a recent cultural invention that requires explicit instruction and sustained effort because our brains are not "wired" for it by default.

Drew and David discuss the implications of this framework for modern classrooms, particularly why "discovery-based" learning models often struggle with secondary knowledge. Geary explains that while children naturally "play" to develop primary skills, the acquisition of secondary knowledge necessitates a different instructional architecture that respects the limits of working memory and the necessity of direct guidance.

Finally, they explore the role of motivation and interest in learning. Geary highlights that while students are naturally motivated to learn primary skills, teachers must often "engineer" interest for secondary knowledge. The episode concludes with reflections on the "curse of knowledge" for experts and how an evolutionary lens can help educators better understand the struggle their students face when encountering abstract, non-intuitive academic content.

Timestamped Episode Timeline

• [00:04:12] Introduction to David Geary – Exploring his background in developmental and evolutionary psychology.
• [00:08:45] Defining Biologically Primary Knowledge – The skills we are born to learn, from language to social intuition.
• [00:12:30] Defining Biologically Secondary Knowledge – Why reading, writing, and math are "unnatural" and require schools.
• [00:18:15] The Role of Play – Distinguishing between play as a primary learning mechanism and its limitations for academic subjects.
• [00:25:50] Working Memory and Cognitive Load – How secondary knowledge strains our evolved cognitive architecture.
• [00:33:10] The Problem with Discovery Learning – Why students cannot simply "instinctively" find their way to complex secondary truths.
• [00:41:45] Engineering Interest – Strategies for motivating students to engage with content they aren't evolutionarily predisposed to care about.
• [00:52:20] The "Curse of Knowledge" – Why experts struggle to remember what it's like to be a novice learner.
• [01:05:30] Evolutionary Perspectives on Sex Differences – A brief look at Geary's research on developmental variations.
• [01:14:15] Closing Remarks – Where to find more of David Geary's work and upcoming publications.

Drew Perkins welcomes Patrick Graff, Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, to discuss his recent research analyzing 15 years of Florida's tax-credit scholarship program. Graff presents a compelling case for why "competition effects" may be significantly more cost-effective than simply increasing per-pupil spending for improving public school outcomes.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

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The episode explores the "competition effect"—the phenomenon where public schools improve when they face the threat of losing students to nearby private options. Graff's research found that public school students in high-competition areas in Florida were 120 to 140 days ahead in reading compared to those in low-competition areas. Most strikingly, he estimates that the competition route was 11 times more cost-effective than achieving the same gains through pure spending increases.

Drew and Patrick also navigate the nuances of school choice, including the role of micro-schools, the impact on rural communities, and the critical need for minimum academic quality and transparency. They conclude by discussing the new federal Education Freedom Tax Credit and its potential to expand educational opportunities by bypassing traditional political constraints and driving resources directly to parents.

Timestamped Episode Timeline

• [00:09:07] Patrick Graff's Background – From teaching 3rd grade in Tampa to researching education policy through a sociological lens.
• [00:10:49] Teacher Training & Alternative Certification – Insights from his work with the University of Notre Dame's ACE program.
• [00:20:13] The "Competition Effect" Findings – How Florida's private school options led to significant learning gains for public school students.
• [00:24:06] Competition vs. Spending – A cost-effectiveness comparison showing competition far outperforming traditional budget increases.
• [00:28:11] Reallocating Resources – How the "voucher threat" encourages public school principals to prioritize instructional quality.
• [00:33:31] The Rise of Micro-Schools – How niche, small-scale schools attract both conservative and progressive educators.
• [00:41:35] The Limitations of High Spending – Why the $190 billion ESSER (pandemic) funding showed modest returns on academic instruction.
• [01:01:26] Schools and Civil Society – The historical and current role of private schools in community building and immigrant integration.
• [01:03:45] Impact on Rural Areas – Debunking myths about school choice "starving" rural schools and exploring new service-sharing models.
• [01:08:38] Ensuring Academic Quality – The importance of nationally norm-referenced testing and parent-facing transparency.
• [01:14:29] The Education Freedom Tax Credit – How the new federal tax credit could unlock billions for both private and public school services.

Drew Perkins talks with Valentina Devid to explore why the term "formative assessment" often fails in practice and how shifting the focus to Formative Action can lead to more sustainable, durable learning. Valentina shares her journey from a history teacher seeking "intellectual nourishment" to a professional development expert specializing in evidence-informed instructional coaching.

Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

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The conversation highlights a critical "lethal mutation" in education: teachers becoming too tool-focused (e.g., using mini-whiteboards) without a clear pedagogical goal. Valentina introduces her company's Five-Step Short Loop Model—Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify—designed to help teachers make intentional, real-time decisions based on student thinking.

A major focus of the discussion is the Verify (Mirror Question) step, which Valentina describes as a "humbling experience" that ensures the teacher's corrective action actually worked before moving on. Drew and Valentina also tackle the challenge of sustainability in professional development, discussing how to support school leaders in making informed, durable implementation plans rather than relying on one-off keynotes.

Finally, they explore the intersection of Inquiry-Based Learning and cognitive science, breaking down the "false dichotomy" between explicit instruction and student-led questioning. Valentina argues that while retrieval practice is essential for fluency, inquiry is a vital tool for sense-making and creating the retrieval cues necessary for long-term, durable knowledge.

Timestamped Episode Timeline

• [00:09:24] Valentina's Journey – From a "question-filled" history teacher to seeking rigor in teacher preparation.
• [00:13:49] Sustainable School Change – The mission of her PD company to move beyond one-off training days.
• [00:19:39] Assessment vs. Action – Why rebranding to "Formative Action" helps teachers focus on pedagogy rather than just tools.
• [00:31:22] The Five-Step Short Loop Model – A walkthrough of the Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify process.
• [00:38:08] The Power of the "Verify" Step – Closing the loop with mirror questions to ensure learning stuck.
• [00:44:48] The Three Strategies – Integrating the Short Loop, Sense for Quality (modeling), and Feedback Processes.
• [00:57:21] Training Teacher Perception – How to use "Pedagogical Road Maps" to anticipate student pitfalls.
• [01:00:34] The Implementation Gap – Why teachers sometimes grasp concepts but struggle with classroom techniques.
• [01:03:45] Inquiry as a Formative Tool – Using Project Zero Thinking Routines to make thinking visible for action.
• [01:12:14] Defining Durable Learning – Ensuring knowledge remains in long-term memory through intentional curriculum design.
• [01:18:00] The Craft of Teaching – Discerning when to provide less guidance to maximize "hard thinking".