My guest today is longtime friend of the show Joanna Stern. You all know Joanna: she is the former senior personal technology columnist for The Wall Street Journal, a former Decoder guest host, one of my co-founders at The Verge, and also just one of my very closest friends.

Joanna just left that lofty perch at the Journal to start her own media company called New Things, and she’s starting with her new book about AI called I Am Not a Robot, which is out this week on May 12th. So we had Joanna on to talk about all of that, especially what she learned going all in on automation. 

Links: 

• I Am Not a Robot | Harper Collins
• It’s time. Meet my New Thing | Joanna Stern
• Why I left My prestigious job to make YouTube videos | Joanna Stern / YouTube
• Signing off from this column after 12 years. Here’s what’s changed in tech | WSJ
• I tried the robot that’s coming to live with you. It’s still par human | WSJ
• The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder

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Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

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Hey, everyone, Nilay here. We’re off today, while the team and I are cooking on a lot of really great stuff in the coming weeks. We’ll be back with an all-new interview on Monday. 

In the meantime, we really wanted to highlight this episode we first aired in the fall, because it’s about a huge subject: AI in schools. The school year is starting to wrap up now around the country, and we’re no closer to figuring out how to thread the needle about generative AI in education than we were in September.

Links: 

• A majority of high school students use gen AI for schoolwork | College Board
• About a quarter of teens have used ChatGPT for schoolwork | Pew Research
• Your brain on ChatGPT | MIT Media Lab
• My students think it’s fine to cheat with AI. Maybe they’re on to something. | Vox
• How children understand and learn from conversational AI | McGill University
• ‘File not Found’ | The Verge
  

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Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

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It’s become an annual tradition to have Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi join us in the studio when he comes to New York for Uber’s big Go-Get event every year. This year, the big news was that Uber's expanding into a much larger platform for travel, starting with hotel booking and services like personal shopping.

Uber is going so far as to call this an everything app, so I wanted to see how far Dara thinks everything actually goes — and whether he’s feeling pressure to own more of the user experience in a world where AI companies keep promising that their chatbots will book all the cars for you.

Links: 

• Uber adds hotels to its app in big travel swing | The Verge
• Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi is okay with reinventing the bus | Decoder
• I have to be honest, AI will replace jobs at Uber | Diary of a CEO
• The DoorDash problem | Decoder
• Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky wants to build the everything app | Decoder
• Booking and Priceline chief wants you to yell at bots, not humans | Decoder

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Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

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This is Nick Statt, senior producer on Decoder. We last ran a mailbag episode during the holidays, and we decided it was a good idea to do that kind of thing more often. So we’re back with Nilay as the guest, answering questions and responding to feedback, criticism, and suggestions.

We talk through some recent controversial episodes like our interviews with the CEOs of Superhuman and Puck, and we also discuss how we’re covering AI, thinking about the future of the show, and what it takes to win (and lose) Decoder. 

Links: 

• Nilay answers your burning Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2025)
• Answering your biggest Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2024)
• Confronting the CEO of the AI company that impersonated me | Decoder
• Can Puck reinvent the news business for the influencer age? | Decoder
• The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

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Jennifer Scanlon is CEO of UL Solutions, one of those hidden-in-plain-sight companies we like to poke at here on Decoder. UL's been around for more than 100 years; it started as a way for insurance companies to standardize fire and safety testing as electricity was the new technology spreading into homes.

But now it's everywhere, and "safety" in tech doesn't just mean the hardware. UL is adapting quickly to the connected, AI-powered era... but do the companies making and distributing tech even care about standards anymore?

Links: 

• How fake UL certifications led to Chinese ebike suit | Electrek

• FCC IoT program loses UL after China probe | Cybersecurity Dive

• FCC’s Carr probes IoT program lab over “ties to China” | PC Mag

• The US router ban, explained | The Verge

• More than 500,000 hoverboards recalled (2016) | The Verge

• Brendan Carr is a dummy | The Vergecast

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

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Today on Decoder, I want to lay out an idea that's been banging around my head for weeks now as we've been reporting on AI and having conversations here on this show. I've been calling it software brain, and it's a particular way of seeing the world that fits everything into algorithms, databases and loops. 

Software brain is powerful stuff. It's a way of thinking that basically created our modern world. But software thinking has also been turbocharged by AI in a way that I think helps explain the enormous gap between how excited the tech industry is about the technology and how regular people are growing to dislike it more and more over time.

Links: 

• Why software Is eating the world | Marc Andreessen
• Gen Z’s love-hate relationship with AI | The Verge
• The attacks on Sam Altman are a warning for the AI world | The Verge
• Silicon Valley has forgotten what normal people want | The Verge
• I saw something new in San Francisco | The New York Times
• Anthropic CEO issues dire warning about white-collar work | The Street

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The last time Canva CEO Melanie Perkins was on Decoder, the company was starting a big push into enterprise. Now, she's leading it through a total reinvention, going, in Canva's words, "from a design platform with AI tools to an AI platform with design tools."

But there's a lot of competition in that AI enterprise space. Not only is Canva competing with design software like the Adobe Creative Suite, but also it's competing with AI companies, like Anthropic and Meta, that are launching their own AI design platforms. So we talked a lot about whether Canva really is the right platform to bring the whole workspace together.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

• Canva AI 2.0 goes all in on prompt-powered design tools | The Verge
• The creative software industry has declared war on Adobe | The Verge
• Anthropic launches Claude Design | TechCrunch
• Canva is now in the coding and spreadsheet business | The Verge
• Melanie Perkins thinks the world needs more alternatives to Adobe | Decoder (2024)

⁠Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking with Ronan Farrow, one of the biggest stars of investigative reporting working today. He broke the Harvey Weinstein story, among many, many others.

Just last week, he and co-author Andrew Marantz published an incredible deep-dive feature in The New Yorker about OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, his trustworthiness, and the rise of OpenAI itself. So Ronan came on the show to discuss the piece, his reporting process, and why he thinks this story and the revelations it contains really matter. 

Read the full interview transcript here on The Verge.

Links: 

• Sam Altman may control our future — can he be trusted? | The New Yorker
• Hey ChatGPT, which one of these is the real Sam Altman? | New York Times
• Suspect throws molotov cocktail at Sam Altman’s home | Wired
• The attacks on Sam Altman are a warning for the AI world | The Verge
• The vibes are off at OpenAI | The Verge
• Why Sam Altman was booted from OpenAI | The Verge
• Sam Altman, unconstrained by the truth | Gary Marcus
• A brief history of Sam Altman's hype | MIT Tech Review

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sarah Personette is the CEO of Puck, a media company that's been around for about five years. Puck hires big star reporters who write newsletters as part of a subscription bundle. Those newsletters are often must-reads in their industries, and those reporters get equity in Puck and a share of the company's revenue.

It's a place where the financial incentives of the influencer economy crash right into the rigors of traditional journalism — and as regular Decoder listeners know, I have a lot of questions about how those two things work (or don't) in the modern media landscape. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

• Puck buys Air Mail in deal valued at $16M | The Wrap
• The man yelling ‘iceberg’ on the Hollywood Titanic | New York Times
• Sarah Personette joins news startup Puck as CEO | Variety
• Are we past peak newsletter? | New York Times
• Two new newsletters bet they’ve got Hollywood covered | LA Times

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, let’s talk about the looming AI monetization cliff, and whether some of the biggest companies in space can become real, profitable businesses before they careen right off it.

My guest today is Hayden Field, who’s our senior AI reporter here at The Verge. She’s been keeping close tabs on both Anthropic and OpenAI, and how these two companies, both slate to go public this year, tell us a whole lot about the AI industry in 2026.

Links: 

• The vibes are off at OpenAI | The Verge
• Anthropic essentially bans OpenClaw from Claude | The Verge
• Why OpenAI killed Sora | The Verge
• OpenAI just bought TBPN | The Verge
• National poll shows voters like AI less than ICE | The Verge
• The spiraling cost of making AI | WSJ
• OpenAI’s Fidji Simo taking leave amid exec shake-up | Wired
• OpenAI raises another $122B at $850B valuation | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Cisco CEO Chuck Robbins. Cisco is one of those big companies that everyone has heard of but most of us don’t have to interact with very much; they’re not really a consumer brand. But without Cisco's actual routers and switches and silicon — and the software to make those things work —  there’s no internet, no cloud, and no AI.

But a data center is a really unpleasant neighbor to have, and there’s robust opposition to new data center builds all over the country. So I had to start by asking what feels, strangely, like one of the most urgent questions of the moment: Should we build data centers in space?

Links:

• Nvidia launches space computing, rocketing AI Into orbit | Nvidia
• Nvidia’s AI dominance expands to networking | CRN
• Amid rising pushback, 2025 data center cancellations surge | Heatmap
• Billionaires want data centers everywhere, including space | The Verge
• How Ciena keeps the internet online | Decoder
• Okta’s CEO is betting big on agent identity | Decoder
  

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Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices